Should there be prizes for drivers?

[sud0n1m]

After a lack of progress with the ATI Drivers, I decided to post a $1000 reward. <del>It seems some people dont want to reward developers to come up with the goods</del>. Lets make this a democracy.

If people dont want to have prizes for drivers, I will remove the prize and wont do it again!

If you do, you will likely see cash rewards for different functionality on each of the systems.

Wiki page is now unlocked
http://wiki.onmac.net/index.php/Developers/X1600_Contest


Colin

[RujusMacBook]

In the spirit of community and capitalism working together (pronounced XOM.efi), I say we reward those that work as hard as they do.

[cawaker]

well the concern is that people will with hold releasing information and drivers in the hopes that more money can be raised.

Now that can be fixed with a contest limit liek the 1K.

But also people are concerned it will slow down information sharing, kinda like the original contest did.

[gizzymo]

Sud0n1m:

Quote: "It seems some people dont want to reward developers to come up with the goods"


I think you know that is nothing to do with it...........

[keldegar]

I think putting a cap on the prize makes more sense.

That way its not a matter of holding out for "more" money.

If theres a single prize and not a pool that builds, i think it won't have an adverse affect on the solution. Besides, it gives more incentive!

[Pu7o]

The thing is, if a reward is given, it'll slow down progress. So I say NO, don't give money for drivers, or we won't see a driver until the contest's over!

[raduma]

The original solution slowed down? It took barely over 1 month from the time intel macs were shiped to when a nice clean solution was found to boot XP. Nor did anyone else really step up afterwards with a close partial solution. I don't see that as the contest having hampered efforts at all. On the contrary, I saw it as an incentive for smart people to tackle a hard problem, and to really try to solve it.

Its easy to keep pushing refresh on the forums and cry for a solution to get done faster.

Its another to dedicate all your free time fiddling with obscure code, and risk bricking your brand new expensive toy.

Edit: Also, no one is forcing anyone to participate in the contest. If you want to release your findings openly, go for it. If you don't want to support those developers who choose to develop in private, then don't donate money. It's the height of arrogance from the part of one won't donate any money to try and stop others.

[RichP]

Colin, I really dont know, I see both sides of the coin. Contest motivates the community, but also limits sharing information.

I think you need to talk to narf or blanka about it first, and get some insight as to what needs to be done to get video to work. I personally feel if it was easy as putting a certain file.driver somewhere, they would have done that rather than write the XOM driver that they did. (I am also considering the fact that the mini was not a factor in their development, as it came out so late in the process)
________
INNOVA (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Innova)

[gizzymo]

raduma , That may be true to an extent, but a point in return.

Considering the nature of this problem, and the amount of possible options : There are billions of official drivers out there, driver modifiers, 3rd party drivers, such as DNA and omega, registery tweaks, there is so may things to be tried that a community based effort will get this fixed much faster.

The bootup contest was different in that the problem was far less accessable to the average tech user as it required intense programming experience to deal with. This problem is different in that it may well end up relying on trial an error, or the right user stumbling on the right registery tweak, driver upgrade or install method, Somthing the average user is far more capable of than hacking the EFI!

Add that to the fact that those with the skills are still likly to work their butts off, as they want to be able to dual boot, play HL2, etc! And at least this way they can run the problems they encounter past the forum members. That should help offset any less incentive caused by the lack of a cash prize!!

[raduma]

A few things.

1. We don't know what the solution will involve. We can guess and speculate, but still not know. A lot of people speculated about the original boot problem. Many "this is how its gonna work" posts and articles. None really panned out. Some articles actually had the right idea about "we're gonna have to do it the hard way and write a CSM", but even then there was a big distance from knowing what to do and actually doing it. It could very well be that to get the drivers working more code will have to be added to the existing solution. On the PC at least, a lot of functionality on the ATI chips is controlled by the drivers through the video BIOS, which at the moment doesn't exist. On the other hand, maybe the current drivers just need a tweak in the inf file and off we go. The point remains that we don't really know for certain what needs to be done. If we did, and it was simple, someone would have done it already.

2. I still don't see how its anyones bussiness whether or not some people choose to participate in the contest or not. If you don't want to be affiliated with it, release your work openly. You don't want to support the developers who like some monetary incentive, then don't donate any money. I fail to see how anyone would have the right to actively try to prevent the contest all together.

[tdewey]

The thing is, if a reward is given, it'll slow down progress. So I say NO, don't give money for drivers, or we won't see a driver until the contest's over!

How can you say this? Without the initial contest reward _we would not have a solution now_

Of course we won't see a driver until the contest is over - that's the point.

I don't understand why anyone would vote No on this.

Contest with reward = drivers sooner.
Contest without reward = no drivers for awhile.

[gizzymo]

Well the owner of this site would have the right if he felt that the concensus was that it would slow down and lessen the qulaity of a solution. He said himself that he wanted a democracy.
However, I respect your points and we will just have to see how this pans out.

[gizzymo]

tdewey

You cant say that we would not have a solution now if there had been no contest. The increased sharing of info that would have resulted from the lack of a contest may well have led to a solution at the same time or earlier!!
Also, bear in mind that what we have now is one solution, there may well be others, others that may have been found by now without the origional contest!

[raduma]

Well the owner of this site would have the right if he felt that the concensus was that it would slow down and lessen the qulaity of a solution. He said himself that he wanted a democracy.
However, I respect your points and we will jsut have to see how this pans out.

Of course. Colin has the right to not run his own contest. He also has the right to ask people whether he should or shouldn't do so, since he is the organizer. My comment was more regarding folks who were complaining during the original contest, and about the driver contest before Colin decided to put it to a vote.

[gizzymo]

understood, but if people had not complained it would not have been put to a vote. Thats no fault of Colin's, he was not aware beforehand of how some people were feeling, and good on him for putting it to a vote.
cheers
P

[tdewey]

tdewey

You cant say that we would not have a solution now if there had been no contest. The increased sharing of info that would have resulted from the lack of a contest may well have led to a solution at the same time or earlier!!
Also, bear in mind that what we have now is one solution, there may well be others, others that may have been found by now without the origional contest!

Dude you can't prove anything you just said -- you're in pure speculation land.

I have facts on my side: contest with reward resulted in solution. You got nothing.

You and the rest of the people voting "no" are living in socialist la-la land. Blanka and narf solved the problem in about 35 days because of the contest - nobody else came close.

If I were blanka, absent a reward, I go do something else. Denying a reward to whomsoever solves the problem shows a lack of appreciation for their work and effort.

If I sound pissed, it's because I am--I can't believe what the "nooes" are saying and doing - you're voting away an early opportunity for video drivers.

[jbacko]

Having been a part of the computer scene from, well, the beginings at PARC, I find this move from a hacker mentality to one more akin to a mercenary one very disturbing. While I can't control our money-centered culture, I always found solace in the fact that in the computer community one could always find a helping hand or mind to solve seemingly impossible problems. The hacker ethic that truly built the computer industry must have a place to live. I thought I found it here with the osx86 effort. When anyone looks at what has been acomplished - and the time it was acomplished in - they should be amazed. From a humble, unreleased, pre-alpha OS running on just about any PC to a released, security-enhanced OS that required a significant hacking effort to solve - all in less than a year!

The hall of fame for this effort is long - Deathchill, Bender, Broadband, JaS, Maxxuss, and literally thousands of others who - for nothing more than the rememberance of their name - have done simply amazing things. More to the point - they have done amazing things for no money. Their payment was the fame of doing the hack, beating "the system".

While I can understand a person's desire to have their system working, I can't get the mentality that would short-circuit this huge community for speed in meeting that desire. There is much to be said about teamwork, community, helping each other in finding a solution to problems such as these. I, for one, can never support code mercenaries. Code deserves to be open and free. It should be developed and tested by the community at large.

[gizzymo]

tdewey

I'm sorry but this is speculation land:

"How can you say this? Without the initial contest reward _we would not have a solution now_"

Yes we have no other solution now, I am saying that we might well have other solutions now if people had been sharing all the time and had no contest. I did not state it as fact (see a quote from my post at the bottom of this post), unlike how you did in your quoted point above.
You too have no proof of how the other scenario would have turned out.

"The increased sharing of info that would have resulted from the lack of a contest may well have led to a solution at the same time or earlier!!"



Thanks

P

[FrostyFire]

How about have a vote at the end as to who contributed the most and the money gets shared between those who actually figured it out.

[ender3]

Are many of you folks new to the internet?

People do things for a little bit of notoriety, and because they CAN... the money didn't speed up development one bit. ((I stand corrected, apparently there WAS a contest to get Linux on an XBox... but I don't recall that happening in any great hurry, either)) There are rarely cash prizes to get Linux on ANYTHING, as a matter of fact, and yet it runs EVERYWHERE. There was no cash prize to do most of the things that hackers have done for the past 10 years, and yet they all happened... and quickly.

If your goal is to speed development, then the sharing of information is the fastest way to do that. It's been proven thousands of times.

And, sorry to disappoint you all, but I am neither socialist nor stupid. And I believe it is very possible that XP would have been running even faster on Intel Macs without a contest.

[tdewey]

I'm sorry but this is speculation land:

"How can you say this? Without the initial contest reward _we would not have a solution now_"

Yes we have no other solution now, I am saying that we might well have other solutions now if people had been sharing all the time and had no contest. I did not state it as fact if you take the time to read my post more carefully.

Thanks

P

And I'm saying you have zero basis on which to make that statement.
I'm also saying that your comment shows a lack of appreciation for blanka and narf's efforts (and Colin's) - you're calling them out for not sharing and for Colin for posting the contest in the first place.

I honestly can not see how you can delude yourself into beliving that we'd have XP on Mac now without the contest and monetary reward.

I go to work because they pay me. So does everyone else in the world. People do things for monetary rewards. It allows them to take the monetary reward and do what they really like.

[raduma]

How about have a vote at the end as to who contributed the most and the money gets shared between those who actually figured it out.

Thats a recipie for disaster.

[gizzymo]

tdewey
I dont see how I am showing a lack of appreciation for the efforts of narf, blanka and colin. Doing what they did without the option of sharing the problem with others must have been a nightmare.
However, feel that as I do, does that mean I should not point out a process that I believe may prodece better results??, i.e. help talented people like narf and blanka go even further!!

As for the reasons behind peoples incentive, I think the amount of community based projects that do not offer rewards, such as osx86project, demonstrate the real power of incentive, that that is fueled by a spirit of co-operation.

Oh, as for having no basis for my argument, I actully think I have just as much as you, if not more. Remember The absence of another solution now is not in any way proof that another one would not have been found by now with out the contest.
Also, the above mentioned Osx86project is a pretty strong basis too.

Secondly I appreciate your opinions and apologise for any annoyed tone that came across in my post. Its not something that will help this process if we starting getting mad at each other.

Cheers

P

[FrostyFire]

The reality is that if there was an incentive to get money out of doing this, then people would be more willing to do it....but working by yourself on this will be hard.

The same way narf and blanka worked together on this, there's no reason why many people shouldn't work together on it.

How about the $1,000 be donated to a charity?

Damnit why doesn't anyone know any programmers over at ATI, I'm sure they could use an extra grand in the bank.

[raduma]

Having been a part of the computer scene from, well, the beginings at PARC, I find this move from a hacker mentality to one more akin to a mercenary one very disturbing. While I can't control our money-centered culture, I always found solace in the fact that in the computer community one could always find a helping hand or mind to solve seemingly impossible problems. The hacker ethic that truly built the computer industry must have a place to live. I thought I found it here with the osx86 effort. When anyone looks at what has been acomplished - and the time it was acomplished in - they should be amazed. From a humble, unreleased, pre-alpha OS running on just about any PC to a released, security-enhanced OS that required a significant hacking effort to solve - all in less than a year!

The hall of fame for this effort is long - Deathchill, Bender, Broadband, JaS, Maxxuss, and literally thousands of others who - for nothing more than the rememberance of their name - have done simply amazing things. More to the point - they have done amazing things for no money. Their payment was the fame of doing the hack, beating "the system".

While I can understand a person's desire to have their system working, I can't get the mentality that would short-circuit this huge community for speed in meeting that desire. There is much to be said about teamwork, community, helping each other in finding a solution to problems such as these. I, for one, can never support code mercenaries. Code deserves to be open and free. It should be developed and tested by the community at large.

In reality, most programmers since the term has existed have usually gotten paid for their efforts. Don't dimiss the majority of people who prefer a quiet non-sensationalist existence simply because you never hear of their endeavors. Some people are happy with net-fame as a sufficient reward. Some prefer a more tangible one. In reponse to your topic, "where have the true hackers gone?"... They grew up, have families, and need to pay their mortgage.

[kzt]

There was no cash prize to run Linux on an XBox, but it happened. There was no cash prize to get Linux on ANYTHING

For the record, Michael Robinson (former CEO of MP3.com, Linspire) offered a large sum for a working linux bootloader for the Xbox.

24 January 2003: Project B Prize Rules posted

Linux has been running on the Xbox for months now with great results. But a modchip is still required: this still puts Linux beyond many users' reach. Michael Robertson has extended a $100,000 challenge to see if we can bring the goodness of Linux to the Xbox without a modchip. Read here for more details

I have no opinion at this time, however, I do not want anyone to have incorrect information on this either.

[Ari]

I think that the best solution is to talk to the people with the technical knowledge to do such a feat and get their suggestions. If it's a matter of tweaking an inf file, then a community effort is probably the best. However, if the solution will require a massive amount of screwing with the ATI drivers and writing code, then a contest would be best.

How about the $1,000 be donated to a charity?

Good idea. The site could donate $1,000 to a charity of some sort as soon as a solution was released. That way, you'd get the benefit of a communal effort with the added bonus of an incentive to do so. It would work the best with a charity in the business of saving lives. We'd have some slogan to the effect of:

"Save Lives; Hack This Driver!"

[growingcow]

I personally believe that a reward is a good thing. I mean

1.) it might be a registry tweak needed, it might be a specific driver, it might be a combination of both. Perhaps some work has to be done on the boot loader. Then again maybe it's more complicated than that and the entire boot loader needs to be rewritten. No one really knows and that's the problem, it's pointless to spectulae that the solution is "simple" or just "driver based".

2.) we need all the help we can get. And while there are a lot of smart people here. Having another contest with money could attract more smart people to this project. I mean who knows, the next person who wins might not even care about running xp on intel macs. They could be doing it so that they can get the $$$.

3.) The thing about fame, Steve already said that he won't prevent people from running windows on the mac. So there is no real "system" to beat. On the other hand the "system" to beat would installing "OS tiger on a average pc" since Steve does not want that to happen. Which is already done.

4.) There is nothing wrong with collobration but i think that having a small pot doesn't hurt as an incentive

[Atomic Fusion]

An incentive to motivate would be great!


<small><small>A few things.

1. We don't know what the solution will involve. We can guess and speculate, but still not know. A lot of people speculated about the original boot problem. Many "this is how its gonna work" posts and articles. None really panned out. Some articles actually had the right idea about "we're gonna have to do it the hard way and write a CSM", but even then there was a big distance from knowing what to do and actually doing it. It could very well be that to get the drivers working more code will have to be added to the existing solution. On the PC at least, a lot of functionality on the ATI chips is controlled by the drivers through the video BIOS, which at the moment doesn't exist. On the other hand, maybe the current drivers just need a tweak in the inf file and off we go. The point remains that we don't really know for certain what needs to be done. If we did, and it was simple, someone would have done it already.

2. I still don't see how its anyones bussiness whether or not some people choose to participate in the contest or not. If you don't want to be affiliated with it, release your work openly. You don't want to support the developers who like some monetary incentive, then don't donate any money. I fail to see how anyone would have the right to actively try to prevent the contest all together. </small></small>

[hokutorii]

No way, don't have any more stupid contests. If it wasn't for the contest in the first place, we'd have Windows XP running on these systems over a month ago. All it does is halt the sharing of information, why even consider another one?

[FrostyFire]

No way, don't have any more stupid contests. If it wasn't for the contest in the first place, we'd have Windows XP running on these systems over a month ago. All it does is halt the sharing of information, why even consider another one?
I doubt it,

If they really wanted too, they could have waited until 2 days before the cut off to get the maximum money available. Instead they released it when it was ready.

[pureeville]

I vote nay, because full support of XP on Apple hardware is a forgone conclusion. Further prodding on the part of this site could easily be seen as self-serving. Maybe if things don't work out?

[Steve1496]

I'm stuck on this. I see both sides of the argument, and each has equal strengths. However, it is true that developers spend a lot of time on these things and should be rewarded for their efforts. But you also (as mentioned) have the idea of slowed sharing of ideas.

In the end, I believe if we have a reward, there will be more motivation to get it done. If you do indeed start a contest, count me in for a donation.

Steve

[MulletMan13]

I'm all for a fixed prize... it would make people race to the finish line instead of holding out. There is a ton of tinkering through IRC and the wiki, but I don't think those people would really stop helping out...

A growing prize would be terrible, but a fixed prize would be nice. It might force those people with that HL2 video on MBP to put something out.

[jann]

If it is simply a topped out amount, then let them have it.

I clicked the wrong button. if it is a contest with a deciding factor of one, then please put my "NO" in the "YES" column

Jann

[mac wilson]

Ok

NO CONTEST or Fixed contest prize of $500 US. starting now. Solution will be given ONLY when we fork up the moola, but that's no problem as no solution now anyway.

AND FOR GODS SAKE NO GROWING MONEY POOL! otherwise your going to have a long wait .

who knows if naf and his pal have a pending release as we speak

[FrostyFire]

Instead of there being a dollar amount incentive, why not a prize? I'm sure you could get a company to donate something cool in leuw of sponsorship fees.

[Afternoon Delight]

I see both sides of the arguement, but there really are thousands of combinations. I think pooling everyone's work together would be the best.

Then again, I know nothing about coding

[mac wilson]

Since I can't vote NO more than once ( ratz)

how about

Encouraging them to charge for it with Paypal. In other words, we won't automatically call them scumbags if they do :)

And BTW lets end this pathetic debate today as it's just going to slow things up

[jann]

Dude you can't prove anything you just said -- you're in pure speculation land.

I have facts on my side: contest with reward resulted in solution. You got nothing.

You and the rest of the people voting "no" are living in socialist la-la land. Blanka and narf solved the problem in about 35 days because of the contest - nobody else came close.

If I were blanka, absent a reward, I go do something else. Denying a reward to whomsoever solves the problem shows a lack of appreciation for their work and effort.

If I sound pissed, it's because I am--I can't believe what the "nooes" are saying and doing - you're voting away an early opportunity for video drivers.
TDEWEY, DUDE, cool it!

$1k is nothing to the likes of people who program for a living OR who are able to program a video driver. It is SOME ipetus, but not much. Keep in mind, that is less than most programmers make in 2-4 days (depending on what they are programming)!

Sorry if i sound pissed, but i am not. Just bringing you back to reality. $14k is a LARGE cry from $1k.

Nothing personal, Colin.

There are 2 schools of thought and several schools within them.

First there is the suggestion:

"Lets give donated money (i assume--would not change my mind if it was Colin's own money) to get results"

Then you have the question:

"Contest with fixed prize or growing prize."

Then you have the question:

"What is a vast enough some to get the attention of those who program for a living but not sound too outlandish for those who donated."

REASON:
You see, if someone donated $50 and had an iMac, they could be pissed that $1k is going ONLY for VIDEO on what they see as the MBP, not the iMac!

Anyway, you see, Colin is caught between a rock and a hard place.

I think $1k is FAR AND AWAY too low for a video driver, HOWEVER, i DO think it should be a FLAT amount, and not growing. For instance, $3k or $5k.

AND that is more in line with the amount of work we are hearing (reportedly from Blanka via 3rd parties on IRC) that it would take to do it.

Keep in mind that a video driver (to most people out there) is the face of how Windows XP responds to us, the Mac Public

Second there is the fact that us, the Mac Public, are SNOBS, and we will always be. We have ABSOLUTELY the MOST BEAUTIFUL OS and Computers out there...we will NOT put up with something any less than that when moving XP onto those beautiful machines--as proof...DID ANYONE out there NOT turn off acceleration? Sure they did...cos even though we like the word "ACCELERATION", we like smooth window movements better.

Just something to think about...

Keep the animosity down and use :) and :( instead, okay?

Jann

[Dingleberry]

Not to take anything away from blanka or narf as they did a tremendous job in getting to XP to run (their achievement for this is very much appreciated) but the problem (no fault of their own) with the solution they came up with is that it is too much of a short term hack which can cause issues especially with getting video to work. This is also no fault of Colin since hindsight is always one of those after the fact things. If the contest had stipulated for a more robust solution which required Windows to be installable without hacking the installation, the solution would have resulted in something better. Instead, it is the only current working solution which everyone needs to work off of. What is really needed going forward is something a bit more robust at the basic level else this is going to constantly be an issue as Apple makes changes or releases new hardware.

Since Microsoft has pulled back on EFI for the mean time, all this is going to result in is a disconnect when it comes to video driver support (UGA versus VGA for example) as most Wintel vendors aren't going to have any motivation to change things until they have to. I would guess we as users would like a well written set of drivers as well but this entails a better foundation to work off of (but again, others may have a different opinion on that and not care so long as the end result is that it works).

Following is just my opinion. Maybe more effort should be placed on the foundation by beefing up the legacy BIOS support. A full blown EFI CSM might be out of the question since something like that will no doubt take plenty of time and skill to create (maybe to the point where it wouldn't be free). We all know that Amit Singh and company are working on BAMBIOS but the silence since their initial blurb is clear that the objective they are trying to achieve is requiring a greater deal of effort in order to come up with something that will work much more transparently (especially the video driver area). Knowing Amit's reputation, they will probably come up with something close to that goal but the lack of something concrete from that project shows it requires much more time and work to accomplish. And until something concrete is released, it is just vapor and people will continue to work with what is currently available.

Throwing cash (which should have reasonable limits) towards a solution is fine though I feel that it should emphasize quality and robust solutions and not half-baked hacks as I don't think we want dual booting Windows on a Mac to become an unpleasant experience. I do agree that these contests can be both a motivational factor but also one which will limit information sharing. Sure, no one has to take part in the contest nor withhold any information but the reality is with money on the line, there is little motivation for sharing information even by those who chose not to take part since those folks will always have that feeling that someone else who is trying to win the contest may use that information for that objective. This makes answering yes or no difficult because there are pluses and minuses with each.

[real_mav]

The problem with money is that people won't share their code or findings. While it motivates people to work, it will take longer for the solution to come.

reward = long wait.

[proxyed]

Although both side have valid point, I would say those devoting their time to improve the project deserve some compensation. As far as not having the results until the contest ends. The entries could be made available as a "use at you own risk" until a winner is declared. Just my two cents.

[holyjewsus]

I feel like money, maybe a smaller amount should be awarded for a native hardware video acceleration solution. The amount of time and work required seems to be too much for free.

[mikesown]

I think that a better way to deal with the money would be to reward developers for accomplishments and contributions they make on the forum. Specifically, we shouldn't say "give us a complete solution, and walk away with all the cash," but rather "help us with the puzzle, and you'll get some cash." The problem with this, of course, is to determine what magnitude someone needs to contribute to be paid. I, however, think that this is possible. We should reward people for SHARING information, not keeping it secret until it is 100% working. It will get done much faster if people just share information. If we reward people for little pieces of the puzzle, we get the best of both worlds: the developers get paid AND we get a solution in a more timely fashion.

[sud0n1m]

I think that a better way to deal with the money would be to reward developers for accomplishments and contributions they make on the forum. Specifically, we shouldn't say "give us a complete solution, and walk away with all the cash," but rather "help us with the puzzle, and you'll get some cash." The problem with this, of course, is to determine what magnitude someone needs to contribute to be paid. I, however, think that this is possible. We should reward people for SHARING information, not keeping it secret until it is 100% working. It will get done much faster if people just share information. If we reward people for little pieces of the puzzle, we get the best of both worlds: the developers get paid AND we get a solution in a more timely fashion.

I really, really like this idea. Can anyone develop it further into a working model? I would certainly support it.

[jann]

I think that a better way to deal with the money would be to reward developers for accomplishments and contributions they make on the forum. Specifically, we shouldn't say "give us a complete solution, and walk away with all the cash," but rather "help us with the puzzle, and you'll get some cash." The problem with this, of course, is to determine what magnitude someone needs to contribute to be paid. I, however, think that this is possible. We should reward people for SHARING information, not keeping it secret until it is 100% working. It will get done much faster if people just share information. If we reward people for little pieces of the puzzle, we get the best of both worlds: the developers get paid AND we get a solution in a more timely fashion.
this could be a "political nightmare"

Jann

[FrostyFire]

How about buying a bunch of USB thumb drives or something small (or an Amazon coupon) and giving them away to people who assist.

[jann]

I really, really like this idea. Can anyone develop it further into a working model? I would certainly support it.
Could sourceforge.net be a good place for this?

Don't they have collaboration tracking or something?

Jann

[mac wilson]

I agree with mikestown

[bombastica.net]

I concur with mikesown, I think we should have a "let's get:

video drivers
fan drivers
sound drivers
mic drivers
iSight Drivers

ect. all working within Windows on the Mac"
Then when it's all completed the pot will be divided evenly amongst those who had completed an item on the checklist.

I have said before that if Colin can use his influence to come up with flawless video by the end of the month, along with an option for my OS to auto boot into OS X after 5 seconds I will YOU Colin any PC game of your choice from where I work.

[tdewey]

If your goal is to speed development, then the sharing of information is the fastest way to do that. It's been proven thousands of times.

And, sorry to disappoint you all, but I am neither socialist nor stupid. And I believe it is very possible that XP would have been running even faster on Intel Macs without a contest.

Look. The fastest way to get something done is to pay someone to do it.
It's been proven billions of time.

Y'all can continue to spew this "would be running faster" crap without a gram of proof for as long as you want - you're not going to convince anyone who hasn't drunk the kool-aid with you.

[growingcow]

"Look. The fastest way to get something done is to pay someone to do it.
It's been proven billions of time.

Y'all can continue to spew this "would be running faster" crap without a gram of proof for as long as you want - you're not going to convince anyone who hasn't drunk the kool-aid with you."

i totally agree, i mean why the hell do you think programmers especailly good ones get paid so much? Because they can get things done fast, quick and have the know-how! and that's where the money & contest would attract.

[mikesown]

It sounds way too complicated.

how about simple and direct

$1000 US for the driver.

Whats wrong with that? just a efficient way.
no fussing . We take the collections and by the time we get it a driver should be in progress.

I pleadge $15 right now

The problem with that is the fact that it hampers any type of conversation between developers. True, it is direct and not complicated at all, but it relies on people not sharing intelligence. Other people on the thread have commented that developers have the option of staying out of the competition. Well, what developer would stay out? Money makes people greedy, and if people have a shot at making money, they'll do whatever they can to get it.

If we award small prizes for each small accomplishment(ex. researching how the GPU works in the iMac/Macbook Pro) progress will be much faster, as different groups of people won't be "reinventing the wheel" per se. Everyone will have the same information which will lead to a solution more quickly.

I am aware of how my idea could turn into a disaster, but if the contest was setup appropriately, I think that it could work. More developers working on a project translates directly to the project getting done more quickly.

[tdewey]

It sounds way too complicated.

how about simple and direct

$1000 US for the driver.

Whats wrong with that? just a efficient way.
no fussing . We take the collections and by the time we get it a driver should be in progress.

I pleadge $15 right now

This assumes the fixing the driver is easier than getting XP to work - which isn't clear at this time (for all we know it could actually be a harder software problem).

But I have no prolem with this basic approach. But someone who can actually speak to the difficulty of the video driver vs XP and everything should weigh in.

[jann]

All those who say "I pledge $xyz right now" or whatever,

Just saying this: "It does no good to say 'I pledge'" and not do it.

If you don't pledge (ie: If you make it conditional) then Colin has NO IDEA now much money he has to work with for a prize.

Just my $.02

Jann

[tdewey]

Money makes people greedy, and if people have a shot at making money, they'll do whatever they can to get it.
.

You have a pretty pisspoor view of people. And you what? Work for free?

I have to admit I'm shocked (shocked I say) at the weird neo-commie [honestly I don't know what to call it? neo-socialist? neo-anarchist?] attitude of some people. Money isn't poison people. It's what everyday people use to exchange for services and goods - so we don't have to deal with the messiness of a barter economy.

I cant emphasize it enough - we would not have XP on Mac if Colin hadn't run the contest. If you can't accept that fact - go back to school and take logic. There is zero evidence for the claims that absent the contest we'd some how have achieved the same result.

[damien6669]

Just my $.02




is that a pledge? :)


I think all this bickering is done by a lot of people who have no real Idea what is involved. I think.. what would be best is to let the contributors of the project (or those who feel that they can contribute) decide... since they will be doing all the work... right? do they want money? It shouldn't really be up to us... since none of us are going to get off our ass and do it... right?

The idea to pay people based on their contribution to the cause (video on the crappy os) is a great idea... becuase it allows people to contribute what they can for a $ amount... if they want to do it for free, they can, and if people want to try it for money they can too. We are defending or arguing our own ideals... but we, like I said, aren't making these damn drivers are we ;)

I am bitching, not complaining... there IS a difference!

[rxcited]

You guys are getting way too political about all this. I can see both sides of this issue too. My personal preference is limited prize money. This provides incentive for the effort and limits the greed factor. I voted YES, but there really ought to be three options no, yes unlimited, yes limited. I think many neo-whatevers would say "yes, but limited." The incentive for sharing concept is breezy but totally impractical.

-- Fuzz

[jann]

is that a pledge? :)


I think all this bickering is done by a lot of people who have no real Idea what is involved. I think.. what would be best is to let the contributors of the project (or those who feel that they can contribute) decide... since they will be doing all the work... right? do they want money? It shouldn't really be up to us... since none of us are going to get off our ass and do it... right?

The idea to pay people based on their contribution to the cause (video on the crappy os) is a great idea... becuase it allows people to contribute what they can for a $ amount... if they want to do it for free, they can, and if people want to try it for money they can to. We are defending or arguing our own ideals... but we, like I said, aren't making these damn drivers are we ;)

I am bitching, not complaining... there IS a difference!
yes, it was. (yes, i did pledge to the effort...grin)

[Steve1496]

I really, really like this idea. Can anyone develop it further into a working model? I would certainly support it.


I agree Colin this sounds really good!

[Tomzo]

I gave my $10 for the first contest and will pop up another $25 for a contest to get XP to boot from a FW drive. This is the holy grail for me as I am sure it is for others.

Keeping my fingers crossed that the boys up north can get it done!

Thanks

[robosport]

I have to admit I'm shocked (shocked I say) at the weird neo-commie [honestly I don't know what to call it? neo-socialist? neo-anarchist?] attitude of some people.

I think the words you are looking for are, "Open-source community."

On that note has the original XOM solution source been published yet as per the original contest? If not, isn't another contest at this point a bit lopsided toward the only guy with the source to the only current working xom.efi (since a working graphics driver most likely requires source-level mods to the current solution - assumtion based on all current feedback and experience from driver testing to date)?

I'm all for Blanka making the mods to his code for the support required for the graphics driver. I think we are all convinced he has the skills. If he isn't working on it can we get the current source out there as a baseline to work from, with or without a contest?

[aqsalter]

First I should say I am 100% for having contest cash for drivers. If video drivers were easy (it's looking like the video card will have to be flashed atm) it would have been done and we wouldn't even be discussing it.

I'm a developer. How many of the people argueing against any cash incentive are actually able to contribute (ie code)? How many actually earn money from development? Not many I suspect.

OK I understand the dislike for people keeping the information quiet, but even with cash prizes there is no reason not to release a driver as soon as you have it working... Otherwise someone else might beat you to it. As long as the result is GPL and documentation clear we've lost nothing at all.

re: the community solution could have gotten us xom - it did. The Mac community contributed - largest single donation Delicious Monster. As has been stated there was nothing stopping the community for doing it's work, with or without the original contest. The contest got us a solution in the minimum time, which is now available to the community anyway. The work is freely available to you whingers and to the rest of the world as well.

I think sometimes people go on about "the community" when they are the ones who can't be bother contributing themselves.

My 2 cents, prioritise the driver needs: video obviously, but separate prize for each model. iSight (thats going to be difficult) etc. Digital audio out on the Mini (??).

No cap on price. If a driver is easy, the dev will have to release quickly or be beaten to it. The prizes will naturally cap from demand.

Once we have a good base of working stuff, the community will naturally support all the fiddling and testing that needs to be done. Centralised development works to get a first release - Apple being a great example.

As far as I can tell sud0n1m has not earned one cent from his work in getting all this happening. That is community. Maybe he could get 10% for hosting/his own time and getting us this far.

[gygysamurai]

I said this before, but I'll say it again (And, as a side-note, I respect the work done by those who have really contributed. I'm not knocking anyone. I really am thankful):

This will slow progress down. Look at how fast we've come up with solutions for other drivers. And why so fast? Because we did this together, as a community.

Blanka and narf (narf? nerf?) are freaking genius for figuring out the Win XP solution. Kudos to them.

But, with that exception aside, you'll find faster and better results when you combine minds. Solo projects are great, if you want a solution limited to the extent of that individual's knowledge. If we work on a video fix together then no doubt a solution will be found much faster, it will be much better (Where one of us fails, another will succeed!), and we can all take pride knowing that we contributed to this magnificent project.

By turning this into a contest, your denying us the right to work on this together. As soon as money is involved, video drivers become a taboo topic "OMGz THEY CAN'T KNOW MY SECRET!!!!!11!1one"

Seriously, and simply put:
MAKING THIS ABOUT MONEY IS SELFISH!
Let's remain a community in this. Let's help each other find a solution.

[macguy]

Hello Colin,

I think an important part of the contest was the deadline. If the prize just grows forever, people will be reluctant to post his/her solution. As long as there is a fixed date, we'll either:
1) get a solution by the deadline, and the person who provided the solution will be rewarded for his/her contribution to the community, or
2) The deadline will pass and people will begin to share their ideas because there is no more prize to be won.

I suggest we don't cap the prize, because who knows how difficult the driver issue is going to be. We may have to redo the original dual boot solution for the driver to work.

The contest worked before, so I say we go for it again :)

[robosport]

How many of the people arguing against any cash incentive are actually able to contribute (ie code)? How many actually earn money from development? Not many I suspect.


I've done both. I've been earning a living from 3D software development for 20 years. I'm not against a driver contest or getting paid for dev time, I'm just saddened to see the progress here come to a screeching holt.

It has been terrific and exciting to see this army of developers, testers, and users grow so rapidly since this solution was announced. It is sad to look at some of the threads on this forum in the past six hours start to shutdown due to talk of the new contest. Its like watching a plant blossom then shrivel up in the same day.

Unless I misunderstood some of the pre-and-post winning comments from Colin and Blanka, the contest was going to produce an open-sourced solution. Was the source released? (sorry if it has and I missed it - if so tell me where it is) [Update: Colin just posted (http://forum.onmac.net/showpost.php?p=2169&postcount=103) they are trying to get the source up this weekend]

I guess I'm just confused whether this is a blossoming open source project - or is it becoming a commercial project? The difference being volunteering time vs. competing for or expecting a payoff. Personally, I was happy just being involved in such a historic event for computing. Again its sad to watch it slow down all of a sudden because of money.

[dima]

I can see both sides of the question, but I believe if the fixed cash prices will be rewarded for different drivers, than ONLY those people that donate the money will be able to decide about the size of the donation for each driver. This very as subjective as it can possibly get:

1. I believe that one and only one pool of money should be created into which everyone will donate the money.

2. Everyone that donates the money will have the ability to vote about the amount to be paid for each type of driver.

Flaw: relative weight of donations vs the relative weight of one vote - either one donation = 1 vote, or relative weight, but I think that one donation equals one vote (1 donation = at least $1) will be fair as it will define the most valuable driver to be developed. Still not sure about the way to resolve this issue.

3. This way each type of driver will represent the amount that can be paid in accordance to the amount allocated for that specific driver at the moment of the last vote.

4. The results of the voting can be finalized every week, though members that have donated can vote any time throughout the week. This way the actual developers will be in a constant race between each other and there will be no incentive to wait, as someone else can come up with the driver and get the prize for that driver.

This voting still requires a lot of improvement.

[Dingleberry]

Remember The absence of another solution now is not in any way proof that another one would not have been found by now with out the contest.
Need to agree with you. There were others working on it like Chris and Clay (http://daemons.net/~clay/index.php/2006/03/15/dual-booting-windows-xp-and-mac-os-x-on-intel-macs/) and Amit Singh and his IBM colleagues. The absense of the XP on Mac contest would have likely at least had some very smart people working on a solution together and each group would have definitely brought different ideas to the table. Beyond this of course, everything else is speculation as to how quickly a solution would have been created compared to what we have now since at least with those other two, they had design goals to not modify the XP install and accomplishing that would more than likely require a lot more work. For some of us looking to consolidate Windows and Mac into a single desktop at work, being able to install from an unmodified disk via dual boot is the only approved of method so what is currently available is pretty much great for personal use but a pipedream for the work environment. Since we're only a week into this, it is unclear if that will be addressed in XOM or some other yet unreleased solution.

The contest got us a solution in the minimum time, which is now available to the community anyway.
The only issue I have with this line of thinking is it isn't always the best or optimal solution. If the contest had originally specified "using an unmodified Windows XP installation disk" to install from, then I would not be posting this at all because I would not have had issue with the way the solution was implemented. I've worked in project teams with project managers that have taken a "short sighted" approach and took shortcuts during planning and design for the sake of meeting an implementation deadline. Sure it looks good in the short term but the price is payed later in the future when things break and requires constant bandage fixes as more and more stuff is built on top of those original shortcuts.

Again, I am not trying to discredit the accomplishments achieved with the original contest as that in itself was no easy feat with so many parts of the legacy puzzle missing but at the same time, if you look at the approaches Chris/Clay and Amit Singh were shooting for, theirs were a much cleaner approach to build off from. From a video device programmers perspective, wouldn't that be a very important consideration? If you need to build in/hardwire dependencies into the base bootcode which can break as Apple releases new video hardware/displays, then this circle is going to constantly repeat itself if that part isn't rethought (and again, I don't know what the plans are since this is all fairly new). In the end, solutions based on quick hacks for the sake of winning a contest serves no one well if the expectations are not defined properly at the start. That is about my only issue with any contest going forward (to not encourage hack jobs as a solution).

[jann]

It is not currently a FW lockdown from XP that is the problem. The fact is that an Intel mac cannot boot from FW. I do not know why...i am assuming the EFI is the issue.

JAnn

[settolo]

My opinion (as in the wiki): a standard contest with the pot growing up is not a good idea right now, maybe in 2 weeks if we do not get the driver before (but saying it now is like having the contest now, of course).

1500$ for the best solution posted before the 1st of April is a good idea, with the pot going down week after week if we have no good solution befor that date.

So everyone will want to post the solution as soon as possibile.
Of course, the solution has to be secret. If more than one comes before the first deadline, spreading it around will let other people to improve it. The rule can be: if the first solution is released, other solutions must be not derivated from the first one, or the contestants have to split the pot.

I hope you have money to do that (money that comes in the pot after the release of blanka's solution). If nobody wins that, it should go to blanka and narf or to the new sourceforge project.

and sorry for my english

[Kelmon]

It's hard to make a decision on this subject. I can appreciate the arguments that having a contest with a substantial reward will enable people to spend more of their time working on a solution because, as the old saying goes, "time is money" and our free time is valuable; suitable compensation would justify the time spent more. However, I can also appreciate the argument that open-source software projects developed quite well in the past without such contests, so why would one be needed now. At the end of this I am inclined to vote for a new contest for another factor:

The original contest generated a lot of publicity and attracted people that might not have had anything to do with it otherwise

I don't believe that it is disputed that we need some expertise on the issue of the video drivers (which may or may not already be working on the problem) but if we can attract people who might not necessarily have any interest in the Mac platform but who are highly experienced in the field of driver writing then this has to be good. Someone already noted that it was a shame that no one from ATI was participating and, if true, then perhaps a new contest may attract someone to help in their spare time.

In terms of a reward model, assuming that we decide not to go for a plain "winner takes all" contest, you might want to consider the approach taken by the site Experts-Exchange.com. In this model a person asks a question, assigns a pot to that question, and pays that pot to the person who provides the best solution. In this respect the contest may be comprised of many small contests to address smaller questions that are raised by people contributing towards the main goal. While I expect this to be difficult to implement successfully, this may assist in both attracting people to participate in the main contest whilst also sharing information in order to claim the smaller prizes.

[vista]

Hello Colin,

I think an important part of the contest was the deadline. If the prize just grows forever, people will be reluctant to post his/her solution. As long as there is a fixed date, we'll either:
1) get a solution by the deadline, and the person who provided the solution will be rewarded for his/her contribution to the community, or
2) The deadline will pass and people will begin to share their ideas because there is no more prize to be won.

I suggest we don't cap the prize, because who knows how difficult the driver issue is going to be. We may have to redo the original dual boot solution for the driver to work.

The contest worked before, so I say we go for it again :)

I like this idea, nice.

[eobet]

From what little I have seen, projects which require bounties to complete gets completed very slowly.

Wasn't this going to be an open source effort?

[Pietelaer]

You probably shouldnt set the bar too high.
It would take ages for someone on his own to perfect the driver.

Maby it would be better for someone who comes with a workable solution to win the price money.

For now I vote NO because I think it'll slow the progress down indeed.
(Also I think it'll attract a lot of "coders" because of the price money. Wich is a good thing!)

[tdar]

I voted yes due to the cap of $1000. What's not good is to have a solution being withheld while waiting for the pot to become large....a fixed $1000 protects us from that

[gizzymo]

Can I ask you all a couple of honest questions?


1. By voting for the contest, are you stating that you believe that several people working on their own, all approaching many of the same problems separately will generate a better, quicker solution??

If you are, I must say I fail to understand why. Can I give a hypothetical example below:

Person A enters the contest and works like crazy for one week. After one week they come across a problem where by the user changing screen resolutions on the fly breaks their patch. Person A is not hugely experienced in this type of particular problem, but after a few days figures out a work around.

Are we to assume that this work around is of the same quality that the person would have produced if they had consulted with the many experts in the forum??? Can you honesty say this??

With that in mind, even IF the contest were to produce a quicker solution, can we honestly say that it would not be worth waiting 2 more weeks for a community based solution that has had the input of experts in each area and has been tested on a wide variety of configurations.

[dgranda]

I program for a living and the amounts we're talking about are no where near what it's going to take for someone with the know-how to drop everything and work on this full time.

There are certain projects where working collaboratively will come up with the quicker solution, but I've got to wonder if you people who automatically think this is the case have much experience with these things. I think that the quickest solution would most likely come from someone with the specific background in writing video drivers, working on his own in as much free time as he has, given some compensation that is at least not an insult. The bigger question is if someone with the right background is following this board.

At 5K you're still asking some to donate their skills, but there MIGHT be someone willing to do that because they are an enthusiast. Less than that, I would forget about it. You do know that people get paid to do this stuff, right? And it's a lot more than 5K and especially if it were a contracting job (which is what this would be).

Given what has been discussed in this thread I would support a constest with a fixed pot hopefully $10K+, requirements outlined, and a fixed duration. Donations would be collected for a period and if we don't reach the fixed goal in the time period would be refunded to the donors. If we don't reach a solution in the fixed period the money would be refunded to the donors. In this case we should really try to reach for as high of a pot as possible. If we do this ($10K+) I'll donate at least $150. Now that this site has got more attention because of the successful last contest, hopefully we can raise a lot.

[Ari]

This will slow progress down. Look at how fast we've come up with solutions for other drivers. And why so fast? Because we did this together, as a community.

That and the fact that finding those drivers required just a little bit of searching for the working ones. Getting the video drivers to work, on the other hand, takes a lot of work.

And for those lamenting the decline of the "community," grow up. We can have one after we get the video drivers working. The contest worked fine for XP on Macs, and we still have a community, in case you haven't noticed.

[arnoud]

It is not currently a FW lockdown from XP that is the problem. The fact is that an Intel mac cannot boot from FW. I do not know why...i am assuming the EFI is the issue.

JAnn

This is not correct. Any Intel Mac can boot from FireWire, as long as the disk is partitioned with the right settings. I boot my Core Duo mini off my external FireWire drive all the time, no problems...

[gizzymo]

me too! it works grand! I use carbon copy cloner to clone my disk to my external firewire.

[WandaLust]

All,

I think at the moment this competition is pointless and a waste of valuable time. I really think the issue (20" iMac at least) is to do with the XOM locked drivers. I don't think it is in the drivers themself. I am fairly sure that if we could install XP with full bios/vga bios support in the same way as on any PC then drivers are not an issue.

According to XP there are no Hardware Incompatability issues (if you run the software checks off the CD).

For me this issue is that something in the XOM is locking the default vga driver in place. I can get the correct drivers showing in the display driver and yet they are unused.

Comparsion against a normal XP installation reveals that Display Drivers are correct but we are missing the Monitor drivers. Also when you click properties on the desktop we are showing the Xom driver (xpOnMac).

Anyway,

I think it's unfair at this point until the code is in the open source domain for everyone to make fair contribution.

I requested an open source project last night to kick off some serious development to get us to a full implementation. The aim to be the installation of XP/Vista/98/Linux or whatever OS supports x86. Essentially creating a full blown CSM which can support any installation without modification. Details will follow at a later date.

This is in no way to take away from the work both Blanka and Narf have done to get us here now. They worked extremely hard and took whatever shortcuts as necessary to satisfy the urge of us all to get dual boot, we can hardly expect it to be 100% on the money.

Anyway Blanka/Narf if you guys want to get a project underway I have requested a sourceforge opensource GPL project for this actually anyone who wants to get involved please we need as many people as possible.

:confused:

Anyway let's put the competitions on hold until we have stability and opensource otherwise this will all get out of hand with too many solutions and who knows how much trouble it will cause us.

We all want the same thing so let's work together

[gizzymo]

well said.......

[Threephaserebel]

I don't believe there should be a contest for one main reason, I believe that it may hinder progress rather than promote. While a cash prize may cause some people to participate, I believe it will hinder progress. While one person may create a solution, two may create a better solution. If you keep adding people and factor in the fact that there are many possibilities as to how to make something work, having more people allows development to travel down many of the possible paths at the same time. A contest inspires many people to go it alone and stray from the community. They travel all paths by themselves and inform no one (except maybe friends) of their progress. Just like when the contest was first started, I heard reports of people bricking their machines. What I didn't hear is how their machines became bricked. Had that information been shared, people would know what not to do, rather than still having to try all possible routes.
The monetary reward goes against the basic principle of how a lot of progress is made in the computer world, by sharing information. Not everyone wants to work on something just for the money. Many people do it because they can. As someone pointed out before, Linux has never required a reward for development and yet it contains many drivers and features that some people or a group of people have worked on to create and then allowed it to be used by others without receiving a reward. Linux has come a long way not because of the contributions of a single person, but because of the contributions of the community. While a monetary reward may generate a solution faster, it may not be the best solution. If a community of testers are allowed to look at finding a solution, they can test many possible avenues and pool the knowledge of a large group of hackers. Then others who may not be able to contribute code can try the solution and offer suggestions to improve the current solution (like me, although I don't have 1337 h4xx0r knowledge, I know what I want a program to do).
In summery, I think the contest shouldn't be done and the community should continue to share information to work towards a solution. It may not be the fastest method but it should produce the best solution. Hackers shouldn't become mecenaries (as someone said previously).

Also XOM needs to be completely opened up before any other contest is started.

[BartVB]

What Threephaserebel said :)

IMO the first premise of this contest is incorrect:

"After a lack of progress with the ATI Drivers, I decided to post a $1000 reward."

There hasn't been a lot of progress because XOM is still closed. People are still half in the dark because it isn't known if XOM is keeping the videodriver locked, playing with video becomes much, much easier when this has been opensourced. I wouldn't mind a competition if it was shown that the community can't solve this without some really serious hacking like with the Linux on the Xbox thing. At the moment it looks like we need a CSM that emulates a VGA BIOS so the ATI drivers can properly initialize the card, Bochs can probably be used for that and if it can't then it should be possible to use the same trial and error process that blanka used. If we do start a contest then everyone will have to figure everything out for themselfs. Besides that you'll have a much, much smaller pool of people working on this problem. Lots of people are interested in finding a solution but are either missing some skills to build a solution on their own or they just don't have the time to try getting this to work. I would love to help out but there is no way that I'm going to do this on my own, I don't even have a MacBook Pro yet.

Since the prospect of a new contest has been there no new information about the ATI problem has been posted, not here, not in the wiki, not on IRC and not on other boards. IMO that's a nice demonstration of how a contest can hamper progress.

It would have been nice if we could have waited a few weeks to see what happens after XOM got opensourced. If really no-one was motivated enough to work on this problem then you can still start a contest to get people motivated. I think lots of people are motivated to come up with a solution, partially because they can, partially because it's just fun to do and also for their own self interest so they can have a mor functional XP install on their Mactels.

[gizzymo]

Well, to the 59 at least who are againist the contest so far, whatever happens we can work together in an open environment, its just a shame that we will be many less working together pulling in one direction than we could be.

If by chance, if one of our number pulls a rabbit out of a hat and ends up winning the competition if it goes ahead, can I ask that they put any winnings into some form of charity. It would be just wrong to claim a prize after been againist the competition. (e.g. if one of us working openly comes up with a fix on our own or with others, we dont keep the prize if the contest goes ahead)

P

[beejybone]

I think what we are seeing here is a new way for open source software to thrive. The contest was a ground-breaking idea, and produced quick results. I would not be surprised if we don't see this kind of thing continuing all over the open source community. You need something done fast? Sponsor a contest. I see nothing wrong with it.

[BartVB]

If you want something fast then you pay someone to build it for you :)

It seems that Blanka's motivation for the contest was the money but it looks like Clay (http://daemons.net/~clay/index.php/2006/03/15/dual-booting-windows-xp-and-mac-os-x-on-intel-macs/) was in it for the fun. They did almost the same thing and could probably have done this much quicker and cleaner if they worked together. Besides that there are plenty of people out there with some EFI/BIOS/ASM knowledge out there that could help if people wanted to colaborate. I wouldn't be surprised if the ELILO people also wouldn't have mind helping. But with a contest it all comes down to one person or to one person that wants to share the money with one or two friends. IMO it's just a waste of effort that everyone needs to invent their own wheel.

Working together with the 59 that voted no is a nice idea but is not going to work. I'm just going to sit and wait until either someone wins the contest or until the contest is over. I'm not going to invest time and money into something that someone else is no doubt going to use to win the prize for themselfs. I'm not in a hurry so I'll just wait instead of help.

[gizzymo]

I'm not going to invest time and money into something that someone else is no doubt going to use to win the prize for themselfs. I'm not in a hurry so I'll just wait instead of help.

I don’t blame you at all and understand your angle. This is exactly the reason the contest is damaging. From this contest, we are going to end up most likely with a video driver that is less tested, and has less of the input of the correctly skilled people. It’s also quite likely that the performance will not be what it could be too.
1 Brain in this situation cant beat 100, not when there are so many unknowns to be gone though.
It may arrive earlier than a non-contest effort would have (though i doubt it), but I'd rather a quality product was built by a team that took a little longer.

[effects]

I agree with above user. If a contest is made, that's fine, but have a cap. You said $1,000. that should be it. No growing pot, so if someone finds a solution it is out there. They can claim the reward. If you want donations, I think, they should go to you in order to suplpliment the $1,000 you are out and any extra should go towards charity. I don't think anyone is against a contest. We just have problems with slowing progress. The type of contest I am talking about would solve that problem.

Effects
:D

[jann]

Person A enters the contest and works like crazy for one week. After one week they come across a problem where by the user changing screen resolutions on the fly breaks their patch. Person A is not hugely experienced in this type of particular problem, but after a few days figures out a work around.
Disable resolution switching on the fly...grin

Not all drivers cooperate with this "improvement"...

<evil grin>

[jann]

This is not correct. Any Intel Mac can boot from FireWire, as long as the disk is partitioned with the right settings. I boot my Core Duo mini off my external FireWire drive all the time, no problems...
That is odd...

Apple specifically states that NO INTEL MAC can boot from firewire.

I am glad...but it is odd...
...Jann

[jann]

Since the prospect of a new contest has been there no new information about the ATI problem has been posted, not here, not in the wiki, not on IRC and not on other boards. IMO that's a nice demonstration of how a contest can hamper progress.


Have you EVEN BEEN listening in the IRC channel? (IRC is always a great source cos it is realtime). People have been making great strides to help each other and work on the "video problem"...

Just because people have not been using the forums to post the successes they have had does not mean there have not been any. True, no one has gotten ATI drivers working on the MBP, however, many people have had what they consider GREAT successes with "problem issues" ...(no partition to boot onto, sticking when booting during 2nd half of install, cannot boot with such and such CD) and all when the XOM codebase is still "closed". The people (like me) that had major problems getting the solution (XOM not ATI) to work on their systems thank EVERYONE on IRC ('specially Ciparis and Steve1496) for lurking both on IM, PM and IRC! Know the options you have available for support! That is the best bet to succeeding!

Don't assume no one is tearing apart this solution to examine it step by step just because you are not seeing finalized solutions here. Blanka and Narf did not post a finalized solution even though there were many testers that had the finalized XOM solution working. They waited until enough people tested and succeeded before posting the final solution. (even after it was submitted to Colin)

Just a thought.

Jann

[CaptainG]

Start with a single objectives- "Video Driver" "Etc."
Then start with a fixed amount - $1000.00
Decrease the prize amount every day until the answer is submitted
This brings game theory into the mix
People will be willing to work harder and faster and co-op if there is a visible decrease in the reward. This rewards timeliness. Also, a few secret prizes from a few sponsors would help motivate.

Cap

[jann]

Start with a single objectives- "Video Driver" "Etc."
Then start with a fixed amount - $1000.00
Decrease the prize amount every day until the answer is submitted
This brings game theory into the mix
People will be willing to work harder and faster and co-op if there is a visible decrease in the reward.


LOVING THIS IDEA!

Jann

[KublaKhan]

Start with a single objectives- "Video Driver" "Etc."
Then start with a fixed amount - $1000.00
Decrease the prize amount every day until the answer is submitted
This brings game theory into the mix
People will be willing to work harder and faster and co-op if there is a visible decrease in the reward. This rewards timeliness. Also, a few secret prizes from a few sponsors would help motivate.

I agree... that's a great idea! Maybe even add like a few days/week notice about the contest - get it dugg. And, then start off with 1,000 dollars. Decrease by $5 dollars a day - minimum!

[gizzymo]

not a bad idea, if the vote goes for a contest, this sounds like a good option

[Threephaserebel]

I agree... that's a great idea! Maybe even add like a few days/week notice about the contest - get it dugg. And, then start off with 1,000 dollars. Decrease by $5 dollars a day - minimum!


I'm talking with a friend while I'm posting this but I think this is a really good idea. It helps solve some of the problems I have with the orginal contest set-up and the idea of information sharing. As the pot decreases people might be more willing to share info before the the pot becomes severely diminished. Then the question is: what to do with the money that is left over (after the pot is decreased and won)? My friend and I think the best idea is to donate it a charity chosen by the winner. That way someone else can benefit and the winner will decide can donate to someone they like!

[dima]

That sounds great. The only concern is whether 1000 is enough for a video driver, as one of the developers said that 5000 is a relatively competitve price.

[sarcoptic]

If a contest if offered the solution should be allowed to work on any set of CATALYST drivers. ATI has been releasing updates all the time it would suck to be stuck on a old version of the CAT drivers

[DaveGee]

Start with a single objectives- "Video Driver" "Etc."
Then start with a fixed amount - $1000.00
Decrease the prize amount every day until the answer is submitted
This brings game theory into the mix
People will be willing to work harder and faster and co-op if there is a visible decrease in the reward. This rewards timeliness. Also, a few secret prizes from a few sponsors would help motivate.

Cap

I was a 'No Contest' voter for many of the reasons outlined by others already, so I won't rehash them.

That being said, CaptainG (above) has a one really great idea that would make for an acceptable compromise that I'm quite sure many others would back.

Dave

[settolo]

is 1000 enough? is 1500 enough? I do not know.
But I think it is uncorrect to compare this work with a contracting job, which maybe requires something like 10000$.
Someone can put his own money on it, pay someone else (contracting job) to do it and then sell it. This is a different way. He's risking his money and he wants a profit. He wants to pay more to be sure to have the work done.

But here we have a contest and donations. Maybe not enough to attract very skilled person (from ATI?), but we have something.

So, if we can get enough money, we should just pay someone from ATI to do the job. They did it for Apple, because the driver for the Mac is not a standard one and it took a lot of work. If we pay, they can do it also for us, I hope.

So, we can discuss: 1000, 2000 or 5000. But we have to start with a fixed amount

[BartVB]

Yes I've been watching IRC. Yes people are supporting each other but nothing new on the videodrivers. Well, some "I've almost got it working but I won't tell you how yet" and someone that left the channel with something like "I wanted to help a bit but not if that means that someone is going to claim the prizemoney". That's all that I've seen on IRC yesterday before I went to bed and today :)

IMO there are a few options:
- No contest, open XOM, let people hack away with it and see if we can come up with some kind of VGA BIOS emulation.
- A contest with a large prize that would really get someone going. Enough money to attrack people that really want to go for it. A possibility to win $1000 (if no-one beats me to it) wouldn't be enough motivation for me.

Trying to share the money over everyone that contributes is, in principle a really nice idea but, alas, that's bound to give problems. People will feel that they should have gotten more, people will start to whine about that and they will accuse each other of cheating, etc.

BTW getting someone from ATI to help would be really cool but they can't because of legal and business reasons. Even if we had enough money ATI wouldn't do this because it interferes with the relation they have with Apple. A programmer from ATI also can't do this in his spare time because of legal implications.

[tdewey]

Start with a single objectives- "Video Driver" "Etc."
Then start with a fixed amount - $1000.00
Decrease the prize amount every day until the answer is submitted
This brings game theory into the mix
People will be willing to work harder and faster and co-op if there is a visible decrease in the reward. This rewards timeliness. Also, a few secret prizes from a few sponsors would help motivate.

Cap

Soooo - the harder the problem, the longer it takes to solve - the less money they get? Or - if the countdown goes to zero - they get no money.

Terrible idea.

Why are people screwing around with something that we know worked? I don't get it - I repeat - we have a method that already worked:

Winner-takes-all contest, money submitted via pay-pal, voila solution in record time.

Stop contemplating your navels people - start the contest so we can donate and lets get this thing done.

I feel like the guy in Zoolander - is everyone taking crazy pills? [Actually they're not because I see the yes pay them is now beating the no don't pay them.]

[DaveGee]

Taking CaptainG's idea to the limit...


Easy to carry out? I dunno since it's pretty compley but this covers quite a few bases...

----------------
Donation System
----------------

-- Donator provides donation. (every 'dollar' turns into a 'vote')
--- Every dollar is a 'vote'

-- Donator spreads 'votes' into different objectives (feature)
--- Use 'votes' for one or more existing objectives (features)
--- Use 'other' text input field to create a new objective (feature)
--- Set when votes expire for each 'objective' (week/month/never)

-- Donator then chooses what should happen to his 'votes' when expired
--- No expire
--- Return to bank for reuse later?
--- Given Charity?
--- Something else? (refunds would not possible)

-- Other system features

- Ability to transfer 'votes' to another member to control (no 'give-backs')

- Ability to 'void' an objective if it duplicates an existing objective
-- Users can't add more money a 'close' objective simply by creating a 'new objective'
-- When found those votes will return to the users bank.

- Alility to add 'votes' to a specific 'objective' is limited (say 1 month?)

- Once the 'limit period' is reached the pot starts going down
-- (votes start returning to the people)

Could some savvy web developer pull off the php/perl/mysql coding needed to make a system like this a reality - I have no doubt they could... Would it be 'worth the effort' - I dunno...

Dave

[jnjgriff]

The notion that people will withhold information or drivers hoping for more money is fully bogus :confused:. This is a wide open, full throttle, nitrous rocket fueled example of a free market competition at work, open to all interested parties of any level of skill or sophistication - free of hedgemony by big corporations or governments (does anyone understand the French?). I don't have the level of developer skills to work on the solution directly but I can participate by contributing. If I did have the skills, I'd be increasingly motivated by an increasing reward. The more the reward increased, the more motivation. Don't like it? :mad: You have the individual freedom to participate or not, accept the reward or not (I doubt anyone who doesn't support the reward concept or want to cap the reward - would turn it down if they won the contest). Any individual that thinks he is so special and unique in the world that only he has "the solution" and "holds out" for "more money" puts at risk winning the contest to any one of hundreds, no wait - THOUSANDS? of other interested parties furiously working simultaneously to come up with the solution - Any one of them might think that whatever level the contest reward is currently at would be just peachy :D with them.
Putting an artificial cap on the reward would only limit and slow the incentive. How much effort by how many people would be put out if the reward were say, $25K? How about $50K? $100K? dare I say $1M? Imagine how many brilliant individuals would be working, singly or collaboratively at that level? How fast would a video driver solution appear now? It would likely be solved long before the reward reached that level. Compare how many highly motivated individuals we would see at a $100K reward vs. a $1 reward? I'm not telling you to like it, you have the freedom not to like it. The fact is there are individuals who have the freedom to like it and be motivated by the reward. For some, the accomplishment is reward enough. cool. But why artificially restrict the effort to only those people? Exceptionally brilliant developers may be motivated by reasons other than "common good" - like feeding, housing and clothing their family. This next step might be accomplished by a currently "between jobs" developer who has the time and the brain to do this thing.
The original contest/reward for xom was nothing short of freakin' brilliant. It was a pure example of unrestricted open market forces at work - without interference by corporate fiefdoms or big government regulations. How many meetings would be held by how many departments with their own turf to protect? It's been said that vendors say its not a tech issue that stops an EFI version of Vista - It's political. How fast would a government sponsored project take to do the same and at what cost? The very idea of putting "restrictions" on the reward is akin to an effort to "dumbing down" the participants in the contest, making it fairer for the less brilliant and speedy (I can almost hear someone say we need to slow it down to make it fair).
Proof of concept is how fast the xom solution was developed when many knowledgable people doubted that an OS built on booting BIOS could ever be fooled into booting under EFI. Freakin' Brilliant, Colin. I bet I'm not the only one that wished I'd thought of it. And I'll also bet we'll see more examples of this in more places. It just works - like my mac. :p Set up the reward Colin I'm in.

[Alex]

I don't know if it is neccessary to get the drivers as fast as possible by paying money. It would sure speed up someone to have a solution for the drivers but if someone just do this for money then I don't think that is the right person.

That is QUITE much money, you could do other great things for them. Like i.e servers. But you got the money and you decide what fits and what is best to do.

[narf2006]

@Dingleberry

FYI and with all due respect to the BAMBIOS guys, installing XP on a Mac is going to take at least some tweaking of the XP install.

Consider that installing XP on a machine with legacy hardware (i.e. BIOS) a SATA hard drive and NO floppy requires this. Its known as "slipstreaming".

some trivial googling reveals the problem (windows xp SATA install no floppy):
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Operating_Systems/WinXP/Q_21475471.html

There are other reasons the XP install needs tweaking but this is enough to force one to burn a modified XP install disk.

[jnjgriff]

I am mystifiyed why anyone is threatened by a contest.
For those that think the contest is a bad way to get a driver solution I support you in your effort to work outside a contest scenario and work with any collective you want to come up with another solution, dependant or independant of all the information available through this forum, and put your results up here. Maybe it will be better. Maybe it won't. Maybe it will be an improved solution by building upon whatever comes out of a contest scenario. Someone may take narf/blanka's work and improve it. Whatever solution is developed will be freely available through this process. So If you believe the result of a contest is flawed, work to improve the result, don't use the solution, come up with a new solution, revise the solution - whatever. There are enough like minded indivduals to make this viable.
The idea of decreasing reward is flawed. It may take some time to get a solution and setting a deadline where the reward hits zero boggles the mind - the incentive wagon's wheels fall right off. This is a compromise blend of competing ideas neither fish nor fowl, diluting the core drive of both ideas for a political expediency. If you sit on the fence, you get splinters up your a**.
I wish to participate in a solution, but coding is not my strong suit. I can participate by rewarding good and succesful effort but for myself I will not contribute to a decreasing reward. The management of contributed funds would be wonky and a waste of otherwise useful effort.

[bgd]

Maybe an idea could be to time-limit the contest and if no solution has been found after the contest closure, then everyone looking for a money reward is obliged to publicly release their efforts on this forum on the day of the contest closure and if approved by relevant board members these topics would be stickied as official project topics on this forum...

Whichever of these official projects prove successful first would give its initial author either a fixed decreased reward or a reward proportional to the total work required for the complete solution. Any work by others and by the project author himself after project disclosure on this forum would not be accounted for when deciding the reward sum...

If more than one person implements the same initial idea that leads to the solution then they would either split the reward equally among themselves or the person that clearly made the most progress upon releasing his project would be the one that qualifies for the decreased reward...

That would give people incentive to work on a solution, but also make sure that any progress they make gets released in a reasonable time frame, so that others can contribute on whatever progress has been made. Or am I complicating things too much? :rolleyes:

[trafnar]

the thing that will slow progress the most is deciding if there will be a contest. nobody will turn in an answer as we are deciding, they will wait until the decision has been made.

that said, an increasing monetary reward would be great, and the idea that people will hold out until the prize pool grows larger is solved by the fact that they run the risk of someone else claiming it while they wait.

money will create interest for people who didnt care originally. some super smart dude with a mini that has working video, doesnt care if the macbook has working drivers, but might for 1k.

[holyjewsus]

money will create interest for people who didnt care originally. some super smart dude with a mini that has working video, doesnt care if the macbook has working drivers, but might for 1k.


Some humor please...

delete if wanted...


why would some super smart dude have a mac mini :jab: tehe

[jbrannan]

Do it. I'll donate again.

[lolec]

the prize should stay in 1000K so people have a motivation ... if it encrease you will have a problem allredy mentioned , and it decrese it would me a motivation to be faster... but maybe if it decreese too much people will quit trying .

[holyjewsus]

I think the pot should be determined before the contest begins if possible... if the contest is the way we're going.

[holyjewsus]

One question here:

When does this Poll end?

[forbairt]

Ok I've been reading this thread ... right from the beginning and I must admit I came into it thinking WOW another competition I'd support that and throw 20 quid into the pot ... at least that what I was thinking at the start. The more I've read peoples opinions the more I've started to see how a competition could start to hold up things.

Firstly I think the original code needs to get posted please forgive my ignorance on the names as I don't even have a mac yet but I've been contemplating getting a MacBookPro since I saw it at some expo in january and I've been following with some interest the XP / OSX booting problem. Its also quite possible the code has been posted ??

The main problem I have is the lack of windows XP for games on the Mac. Sad I know but its how I feel. Oblivion I was just informed was posted so I should have it tomorrow or the day after and if it ran on a MacBookPro I'd go out and buy one in the morning.

While I see money as a great incentive to do work I know how I'd feel ... I would share no knowledge with anyone on my findings and I think that this would hold things up a fair bit. It could also be an incentive to not release updates to the original dual boot hack as new and better ways are found to Dual Boot the macs with they hopefully will be.

I've very little idea how these device drivers work having only ever messed with generic mouse drivers a number of years ago. I do feel they've got to be pretty complicated things and hacking apart / modifying existing drivers is going to require a lot of skill. I also read that a number of people bricked their systems ??. One could therefore assume that ****ing about with device drivers for graphic cards could end up with displays getting messed up or cards beings messed up.

I think the community needs to get together for a bit now that the first hack has been released and refine it a bit. Talk about it openly and if after a number of months no progress is being made then I'd be all in favour of another Prize. For the moment though let it lie let the community get to grips with the hack and see how they can improve it and go from there ...

*drops his two donuts on the matter*

[Vaxan]

If youre going to start a contest, start it soon, cuz if anyone has a solution already working, they would probably wait for the contest to start before providing it.

[raduma]

I agree - the contest was a poorly thought out "give-away" for any college or graduate level coder. The contest should have stipulated "fully functional drivers" not just "booting Windows." For Christ's sake, you can get Windows to boot on everything from a calculater to a 50,000 node cluster. Those two ran away with 13 large for doing next to no work at all and left us with a poorly implemented, half-baked, useless version of Windows. Now that they have their money they have no interest in hacking drivers or adding to the project - I wouldn't either - unless, of course, there was another $13,000 at stake - light the torches - john.

This level of arrogance is amazing.

"Next to now work at all?"
If it was next to no work at all why didn't more people do it? Where's the gazzillion of people that were also doing next to no work at all that posted their "me too" solutions afterwards? I only recall one person, and he wasn't even half way as far as the final went. Don't measure the difficulty of something by the ammount of code involved. Some of the hardest problems involve little code.


"poorly implemented, half-baked, useless version of Windows"
Last time I checked almost everything except hardware video was working. With only a few compatibility issues aside, everything that doesn't require hardware video works. That actually is majority of windows apps. Sure, you wanted it for games. You're gonna have to wait for the drivers to work. But windows working & dirvers working are two separate things.

"unless, of course, there was another $13,000 at stake"
Whats your point? That the people capable of doing this work won't waste their time unless its worth it for them? Nothing wrong with that. There is no grand humanitarian goal here. Getting Windows to boot on Mac's isn't some cure for cancer. It matters for nothing in the overall scheme of things. These people aren't hoarding and keeping the meaning of life from you. The prize money isn't rescuing baby kittens from medical experiments. It's just a problem that most people want solved so they can perfom some mundane taks, or play games. God forbid the people workin on it get some compesation.

[sud0n1m]

One question here:

When does this Poll end?

The poll close date is at the top of every page: This poll will close on 03-22-2006 at 06:15 PM

- This may be different depending on your time zone.

[holyjewsus]

The poll close date is at the top of every page: This poll will close on 03-22-2006 at 06:15 PM


teehee... sorry.

[FrostyFire]

All I can say is the votes don't lie ;)

[cajunerd]

I vote Yes.. I'll donate to that cause like I donated to the original one. Keep the causes coming :-D

[sshjason]

If it worked to get XP ported to the Mac, why not use the same technique to get hardware working? (For somethings, like Video, I think there is probabaly a better way to get it working than drivers. I'll post more if I find out more, and even for free :p )

[freakyterrorist]

The solution should be a lot easier to do than the booting problem.

The contest should given a time limit of 2 weeks. After 1 week the prize should go down $50 every day untill the 2 weeks are up. I'm not a coder so maybe i'm way out on how complex i think the job is, but the contest should have a short time frame so we get results quickly. After the contest ends the effort can go open source with everyone helping to solve the problem

[tdewey]

I'm not a coder so maybe i'm way out on how complex i think the job is, but the contest should have a short time frame so we get results quickly.

You're not a coder but you're sure a short time frame will get results faster?

Things that make you go Huh?

[toots]

I'd happily toss a few bucks into the pot, as long as the terms of the contest is that no prize money is paid until the sources are posted (along with the solution).

I believe in open source. I also believe that a programmer's work has value. I don't find these ideas to be at all at odds. The trouble is that there's a perception that Blanka and Narf are "holding out" on the sources, and that a new contest would only slow their progress in releasing the sources when they go after the new pot of gold. I don't really believe this myself, but we're certainly going to see a lot of people whining in that direction unless we're a lot more clear about the open source goals.

[sud0n1m]

I'd happily toss a few bucks into the pot, as long as the terms of the contest is that no prize money is paid until the sources are posted (along with the solution).

I believe in open source. I also believe that a programmer's work has value. I don't find these ideas to be at all at odds. The trouble is that there's a perception that Blanka and Narf are "holding out" on the sources, and that a new contest would only slow their progress in releasing the sources when they go after the new pot of gold. I don't really believe this myself, but we're certainly going to see a lot of people whining in that direction unless we're a lot more clear about the open source goals.

I just updated the Project Direction (http://wiki.onmac.net/index.php/Developers/Project_Direction) part of the wiki. This should answer a few questions

[nickcirc]

i Think that the Drivers are an ESSENCIAL part for this project, without them the system is very limited,

[shongohan]

I think the guy makes the omegadrivers can help us

Can we promise a prize for make the drivers?

[Sonoko]

I think it's great to offer cash rewards to people who make Windows XP on our Macs more functional. Heck I am dying to play some games on my iMac :D.

However, I do think it should be required that the solution be open once it has won the prize money. If it was possible to claim the prize, then keep it propriety, I'd vote no

[tdewey]

The fact that yes votes are now outpacing no votes by almost 20% restores my faith in humanity.


The hippies lose! Stan, Kenny, Cartman and Kyle win (and Chef gets replaced).

[BartVB]

It's also clear that 98% of the people that vote for 'yes' are the

OMG! Eye W@ntz Gamez on my Windowz B0x!!!11!!111!!!

type of people that think that (others) donating some money is the quickest way to get this problem out of the way :) So this poll hasn't really changed much of my view of humanity :)

But oh well, in the end there will be a solution, with or without a contest. It's al just a matter of time.

BTW tdewey, you _have_ to be living in the US :)

[tdewey]

It's also clear that 98% of the people that vote for 'yes' are the

OMG! Eye W@ntz Gamez on my Windowz B0x!!!11!!111!!!


BTW tdewey, you _have_ to be living in the US :)

Yes and Heck Yes.

[anderkh]

The whole reason I have XP running on my MBP is so I can do demos of software that I'm selling. Therefore, I need to drive a video projector...THAT is my main reason for wanting good drivers.

Let the contest commence!

Ken

[jnjgriff]

It's also clear that 98% of the people that vote for 'yes' are the

OMG! Eye W@ntz Gamez on my Windowz B0x!!!11!!111!!!
BartVB - I for one do not belong to your 98%. I have no need to waste my brain on games. I use Tradestation personally and professionally - and it won't run on mac or VPC. If I could have anything from a mac mini to whatever replaces the powermacs (MacPro?, ProMac?) I could run have one less machine in my life. I'd like nothing better than to driver multiple monitors running Tradestation on a piece of professional mac hardware i'd be happy. Methinks the game accusers play too many games themselves.

[BartVB]

:) I'm not accusing anyone of playing games, nothing wrong with that even and, yes, I like to play an occasional game. My actual point was that a lot of the 'yes' voters vote 'yes' without thinking. They want a solution fast and they think (without thinking ;)) that running a contest is the way to accomplish this ASAP.

But I guess it's all up to Colin to make a wise decision, which probably isn't an easy task. Lots of forces at work here, lots of pros and cons that are very hard to balance.

And besides, maybe he decides not to go through with the contest and then someone else starts one. I guess in the end we're all doomed anyway ;)

But as I already said, we're going to end up with some solution anyway. With or without a contest, with or without cooperation. It's all just a matter of time and effort. The motivation is here, the skills are also here.

[Janos]

Well, at the beginning I was very concerned about a contests for XOM... And it turned out allright.

Likewise, I was fairly concerned about a Driver contest... I don't know if all my fears about greed/money have been alleviated, BUT a contest will probably start anyway, if not on this site then somewhere else...

As long as the solution is OpenSource it doesn't matter, to quote BartVB: it's just a matter of time!

Moral: Colin, you might as well start a new contest and keep this as the prime windows_on_mac site on the net! :cool:

Janos

PS Not so quiet...

[jann]

Maybe do a loaded Mini or a MacBook Pro.

We could get them for under-retail (or with special extras) like printers, ram or whatever (from amazon, etc) that we could use to give away for other contests...ya know?

It would also serve to get more people into the Mac fold...cos everyone knows when a Mac user gets a new machine, odds are they sell the old one and with the PC to Mac percentage out there, odds are the old one goes to a switcher...

Just a thought. I would compete harder for a MacBook then i would for $2000!

Jann

[roto]

I would strongly suggest we go for the best of both worlds. If this has been suggested, I apologize.

If we attach a firm deadline to the contest with certain minimums in place, we get an open source solution out into the hands of the whole community much sooner where it can be tweaked and optimized and so then we would have many individuals and groups working from a core to improve the initial solution.

Having seen the video of Half-Life 2 running (and I believe it is real), think how far we could get in a short period of time if we could start from that base.

I would suggest a deadline for the contest, say April 1st, with the prize money going to the best solution as voted by the members of the forum. No solution could qualify without meeting certain criteria (such as Open Source/detailed, must be a true x1600 driver (not software render trick), able to run HL2 at frame rates displayed in the video, etc) on all the x1600 machines.

With the two goals of 1) getting a functional solution and 2) getting the community to collaborate on the ultimate optimization, a firm deadline would be our best approach. I would be willing to contribute a few hundred dollars if we go this route within a reasonable time frame.

[settolo]

I said my opionion, but I vote "yes" 'cause I like better to have the contest here AND 'cause I hope Colin will make it interesting (fixed pot or decreasing pot or, at least, deadline in 2 weeks, or something similar).

[philfine]

Hello everyone,

First of all thank you for the solution developed, and for the work done in this excellent web page.

I'm a software developer and I don't agree with the creation of contest for future needs.
I didn't read the 15 pages of this post and some of this reason may be repeated but here they are:

- I think a contest will paralellize the effort for the the drive creation because people will start to work on the solution alone instead of share knowledge.
- The source code of such a project as a driver should be on a CVS service (sourceforge has example) so people could work in parallel sharing effort and also share code for future needed drivers (A real OpenSource project).
- In my opinion, many people are still waiting for there Intel Mac and that is part of the reason why it took so long to find a solution to dual booting.

This is my opinion.
Keep the good work, and again thank you for XOM.

[hokutorii]

To be honest, I think the idea of a contest is pretty lame again considering that it slows down progress so much. Now any time something needs developing, people will be looking if theres a contest first. However, I think that this contest should be run differently. Whether it is $1000 or more, I think it should be a set amount, and it should have a strict time limit. That way everyone gets what they want. Give $1000 or $5000 or whatever you want, but say people have 3 weeks to do it then the contest is over, end of story. That will make people rush to work on it and try their hardest. Then if after 3 weeks nothing is done, the contest is over and the money gets donated to wherever. If it isn't won, now you'll have all these people that had worked super hard over the past 3 weeks able to share their information. So I personally think it should go like this:

Start the contest at $1000 and open the donations for 3 or so days. Allow people 3 days to donate money. After 3 days, donations for the contest end, and the total amount donated is the total of the prize money. Further donations after the 3 days will go to charity, or wherever, but will not be counted as prize money.

The total amount donated in the 3 days is the prize for whoever gets the ATI drivers working on all systems that use it.

The contest will run for 3 weeks only.

The first person to develop the drivers will win the money. If a solution is not found after 3 weeks, the contest ends and the money is donated to where ever.

If after 3 weeks there is no solution, the contest ends and does not start for this issue again. No starting another contest, no leaving it 2 weeks then starting another. Nothing. You have 3 weeks to win the money, if you don't in 3 weeks its over, and we're left with a bunch of people that can now all share their ideas.

Everyone wins. People who want to work to win the money and have a contest win, and people that don't want one also win. I seriously do not think it should be unlimited, what's the hurry then in developing? I also think it shouldn't be a growing pot, because people will just leave it until it's larger. Just my two cents.

[maconic]

Did I miss something, or are we still waiting for the source of xom.efi?!

Let first open source what we have, so other skilled developers can have a look at it, THEN you can consider another contest.

Also I thought you would put any other donations in the open source project that should get started, I don't see that project either.

Let us be honest: even the current solution does ONLY what was in the rules for the first contest. Without the contest we would have a lot wider solution.

I think open source matters, not money....

BR;
MaC

[jnjgriff]

This is absolutely rediculous, like seriously, Colin piss off. Who do you think you are anyway? So big deal you started the original contest that only slowed development. Now you create a NEW contest and LOCK the Wiki page. A wiki is for ANYONE to edit not just for you and your little contests. You seem to think that you're the God of XP on a Mac, which you are not. Stop acting like you think you are so great and that everything is up to you. Big deal you're letting people vote on it, it's absolutely rediculous. You've had your little 5 minutes under the spotlight, now give it a rest and let things progress.

dude, take your zoloft. If you don't like it, you have the freedom to go with like minded people and come up with something better - or worse. That's your freedom. You seem to want to restrict others freedoms. We have words learned in WWII describing certain european societies who restricted freedoms that fit your thinking.

[Darko]

I just want to be able to run SolidWorks and other 3D CAD programs on the Mac... and will contribute $ to make it happen.

[bombastica.net]

To all of you bitching, why don't you band together get your own site, share your information then make the solution a paid for solution. I'd pay for it just as willingly as I'd donate to the contest.

[Atomic Fusion]

I'd pay for it just as willingly as I'd donate to the contest.<big><big><big>EXACTLY</big></big></big><hr><hr><hr>

[hokutorii]

To all of you bitching, why don't you band together get your own site, share your information then make the solution a paid for solution. I'd pay for it just as willingly as I'd donate to the contest.

You are missing the point. It's not an issue of paying for anything. If someone said yeah the answer is on this website, but it costs $50 to see it, EVERYONE would pay for it. But that's not the point here. Go to the drivers forum. See that hefty discussion going on in the ATI section? It's a lot of people discussing what works and what doesn't. It's a lot of people learning from others mistakes, and it's people who only have so much talent, sharing it so others can build from it. Having a contest does exactly the opposite. The forums will go silent, no one will say "Hey I found this, I might be on to something, I just need someone to try this this and this." Instead, you're going to get people that are on to something, get stuck, and have to give up. Why is that so hard to understand??? Like I said previously, I think the best way to make a contest work is have a set dollar amount, and then have a set time limit, maybe a month or so, then that's it. That way it either works, or it doesn't. Both parties win. Don't say oh people can keep adding to the pot so it goes on and on. For all we know, the two that figured out the whole XP thing could have had a solution when the contest was at $2500.

[raduma]

For all we know, the two that figured out the whole XP thing could have had a solution when the contest was at $2500.

I doubt that since the intel-macs weren't even shipping when the pot was 2500. For what its worth I am 100% convincent the contest sped up the time to a solution to boot XP on macs, not slowed it down.

[Quest]

i also don't think a contest will slow anything down.
we all should keep in mind, that holding back a solution can also end up with another person getting the pot for first entry.

best regards
Quest

[zzzzz]

I don't want to get tangled up in the apparent emotion behind this discussion. I'm hesistant to write anything, because it's sure to appreciated only by those that already agree -- and those that don't agree seem to have highly inflamatory ways of expressing themselves.

That said, I thought I would contribute something as a professional, embedded design engineer -- i.e., the kind of guy that designs hardware like the video card that is currently under discussion.

A) These hardware designs and corresponding drivers are extremely complex

B) It is unlikely that someone is going to stumble upon a solution, especially with the tactic of exhaustively trying to configure drivers for existing hardware.

C) A useable solution is going to require a significant investment in time to research, design, implement, optimize, test, and support.

D) Ambitious open source developers (who will never in a million years believe a word of what I've just written) believe that they can pull this off. The breed is characteristically optimistic. Maybe some could pull it off, driven solely by the grandeur of success. But interest and energy for a project like this wanes immediately after the first few milestones. After the major technical hurdles are finished, the competent individuals move on to new challenges. It takes more than just the "spirit of community" to get something polished and functional for the average user. The unfortunate thing is, it takes money.

[bakemono]

I don't want to get tangled up in the apparent emotion behind this discussion. I'm hesistant to write anything, because it's sure to appreciated only by those that already agree -- and those that don't agree seem to have highly inflamatory ways of expressing themselves.

That said, I thought I would contribute something as a professional, embedded design engineer -- i.e., the kind of guy that designs hardware like the video card that is currently under discussion.

A) These hardware designs and corresponding drivers are extremely complex

B) It is unlikely that someone is going to stumble upon a solution, especially with the tactic of exhaustively trying to configure drivers for existing hardware.

C) A useable solution is going to require a significant investment in time to research, design, implement, optimize, test, and support.

D) Ambitious open source developers (who will never in a million years believe a word of what I've just written) believe that they can pull this off. The breed is characteristically optimistic. Maybe some could pull it off, driven solely by the grandeur of success. But interest and energy for a project like this wanes immediately after the first few milestones. After the major technical hurdles are finished, the competent individuals move on to new challenges. It takes more than just the "spirit of community" to get something polished and functional for the average user. The unfortunate thing is, it takes money.

zzzzz is correct in his mention to all of this, but still i must add to the fact that yes it will be a daunting task and a contest may increase the desire ie monetary value, but what others are stating about knowledge sharing is a very valid point.

Something must be said about the idea of solutions from a single person or small group is hindered upon the capacity of that group in programming and creating ideas. The greater the group the greater the productivity and greater knowledge that they can ultimately contribute.

Think about it this way, having the best programmer in the world create a product vs having 10 above average programmers creating a product... the latter will succeed because of a) more resources avaliable and b) error correction. The best programmer in the world is still human, thus produces errors and can lead to optimization errors or lack of optimization. We have so many individuals who are an expertise in so many different categories all within video card designs, why? Because they can each contribute their grasp of a certain aspect of it than another, and maybe one is better than the other. Thus we have revisions in drivers and in all software.

What you propose is to have a contest that may offer a solution, but will it be the best overall? This is a complex task as we do not have a backend open source to the drivers that could work on this system. Also even if an ATI developer were to try for this contest, they would either lose their job if they had to submit priviledged company material or if the contest does not ask the code to be open source then we lose all ability to update or build tweaks for optimization.

In the end it's really a lose-lose situation until ATI releases this video card into other laptop manufacturers and develops their own driver which would work for us.

[zzzzz]

Something must be said about the idea of solutions from a single person or small group is hindered upon the capacity of that group in programming and creating ideas. The greater the group the greater the productivity and greater knowledge that they can ultimately contribute.


Thanks for your curtious and insightful reply. I agree with your thoughts on teamwork, however I think that private teams will emerge during a reward-based contest. If the acceptance criteria are strict enough, individuals are incentivized to form specialized teams to solve the problem, for the reasons that you pointed out in your post: team-based solutions are often more efficient and produce higher quality results.

For example, the solution for the previous contest was submitted by a team. Not a large team, but a team streamlined for meeting the exact goals of that particular challenge. That was what I consider a 'risk mitigation prototype', which I think was a great starting point. Another prototype is probably a good starting point for the video driver, as well. However, I think these contests should eventually hone in on a more useable solution by tightening the acceptance criteria.

[Atomic Fusion]

hokutorii wrote: "Instead, you're going to get people that are on to something, get stuck, and have to give up. Why is that so hard to understand???"<hr>
It's only going to last a couple weeks. I think you can get through it. Does competition scare you? Don't compete. Nobody is forcing anybody to compete in this thing. But competition is a driving force, and people will get involved just for competition's sake. Why not have some fun with this thing? Who do I send my money to in order to pitch in to the prize?

If the competition doesn't bring any results, then we're right back to waiting for your "team effort" to develop the drivers. What's keeping the team effort from continuing to work along side the competition, anyway?

Maybe somebody already has the solution, but since they know there is a contest being debated on, they are waiting until it starts so they can make some money! If you're seriously concerned with time on obtaining drivers, let's get on with the contest so production can resume.

[hokutorii]

hokutorii wrote: "Instead, you're going to get people that are on to something, get stuck, and have to give up. Why is that so hard to understand???"<hr>
It's only going to last a couple weeks. I think you can get through it. Does competition scare you? Don't compete. Nobody is forcing anybody to compete in this thing. But competition is a driving force, and people will get involved just for competition's sake. Why not have some fun with this thing? Who do I send my money to in order to pitch in to the prize?

If the competition doesn't bring any results, then we're right back to waiting for your "team effort" to develop the drivers. What's keeping the team effort from continuing to work along side the competition, anyway?

Maybe somebody already has the solution, but since they know there is a contest being debated on, they are waiting until it starts so they can make some money! If you're seriously concerned with time on obtaining drivers, let's get on with the contest so production can resume.

Actually, I was the one that wrote in my post that it SHOULD only last a few weeks, there hasn't been any word yet how it will work. Secondly, when I wrote about people working hard and getting stuck, what I mean is people can work their asses off to find a solution but might get 60% there then not know what to do anymore. With a contest, that person ends their work at 60%, where as when people share, another guy might have the other 40% and combined we have the solution. I think a contest is fine as long as it is timed. Either way I think it should get a MOVE ON and start soon. For all we know there could be 5 solutions out there right now but no one in their right mind will post it if they know they might win money with a contest, so just hurry it up.

[koni2005]

So for how much longer will people discuss the if and if nots?
Either start a new contest or not - but a decission is necessary, because indecisiveness probably stalls the process of getting the drivers to work more than anything else...

[Birdy27]

It seems like "effect" is sure to be close to a solution. Don't you want to start a contest before the answer is given?

Besides all discussions, the ratings show that the 1000$ should be given, so then make it official.

[dgranda]

According to the wiki it looks like the contest parameters are already set. Look in the wiki under developers->x1600 driver contest. Contest starts when the source code for xom is released. $1000 fixed pot, contest ends April 25. Supposedly the rules were frozen at midnight yesterday.

I agree with the rules except the pot being capped at $1000. What is that about? I doubt this will bring in anyone who wasn't already working on a solution. I was hoping for a fixed pot, but a high one becuase I think it's easier to fundraise with a fixed goal. Potential developers would also know what they are getting into. With a higher pot you could have gotten some press. Now, only people that read the board are going to participate.

Anyway, I wish you all luck. I have a mini so my drivers work, but I would have liked to have lent financial support to this new model in open source. It looked like for awhile there was momentum for contest based development but I think this contest is going to kill it.

[rsang2]

I vote yes for the contest, its what brought us xp on mac in the first place. Where can we donate?

[sud0n1m]

So for how much longer will people discuss the if and if nots?
Either start a new contest or not - but a decission is necessary, because indecisiveness probably stalls the process of getting the drivers to work more than anything else...

Agreed. I was trying to start a new contest at the same time as the source was released. Looks like these guys are really close to releasing the source. I'd like to hold off until then because I think that will give people a greater ability to come up with a good solution.

[WhiteEagle]

i think they should stop or start the contest asap! if there's any working drivers out there, i'm sure, they would hold it back because of waiting for the contest and winning that money. i dont care if there's a contest, but imho decide that quickly and move on!
(i still waiting for my mbp, so i dont have any driver :) )

[sud0n1m]

i think they should stop or start the contest asap! if there's any working drivers out there, i'm sure, they would hold it back because of waiting for the contest and winning that money. i dont care if there's a contest, but imho decide that quickly and move on!
(i still waiting for my mbp, so i dont have any driver :) )

Point well taken. Contest has now started: http://wiki.onmac.net/index.php/Developers/X1600_Contest

[amidoc]

I don't think you should exclude them. They got us this far, let's continue to use their experience and know-how. I think we should let them compete.

[moksha]

Well I think that if narf and blanka release a solution, the contest will end but they won't get the money. I mean, 13,000 something is enough...

[deadelvis]

Does this - http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/ - mean this contest is dead?