What software do you use to run Windows on your Mac?

[BlackCivic]

Hello! :)
I need some advices about software that runs Windows on Mac. I have some uncertainty about which piece of software to purchase.
What are advantages and disadvantages of each of this piece of software? :confused:

[specter]

Hi!
I use Parallels + Boot Camp.
Parallels and Fusion seem to one of the kind. They have pretty similar functions, but overall Parallels Desktop is a bit faster and provides a better support for Vista. Fusion supports 64-bit OSes while Parallels doesn't.
I'd advice to use Parallels they have decent techsupport and release updates more often.
Boot Camp is better for gaming and heavy graphics, though
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[zarmanto]

I have been using BootCamp since beta version 1.2, and I am now using it under Leopard. I have also experimented with the fully-functional demo versions of both Parallels Desktop and VMWare Fusion.

Specter and I have been having a running debate over this issue: he is a staunch supporter of Parallels (and virtualization in general) while I am a staunch supporter of BootCamp -- and to a lesser extent, VMWare Fusion. In another recent thread on this topic, I described the different options which are available in this post (http://forum.onmac.net/showthread.php?t=3091#post12981), and then I made my own case for both BootCamp and VMWare Fusion in this post (http://forum.onmac.net/showthread.php?t=3091#post12992). (Specter made his counter in the post immediately following.)

Here is my own analysis in brief: BootCamp is perfect for all purposes if you're willing to take a minute to reboot your machine whenever you need to use Windows, and virtualization environments are adequate for many basic Windows tasks, but will fall drastically short of the mark for most graphically intense operations. Since my primary purpose for using Windows at home is to play Windows-based video games, I came to the conclusion that virtualization just doesn't satisfy my needs at all, and I chose not to purchase either product after their respective demo periods expired.

As an aside: while I agree with Specter that the two virtualization programs are quite comparable in a great many ways, I do not necessarily agree with his assessment that Parallels is faster then Fusion, based upon my own brief experimentations with each program. (Sometimes I find myself wondering if he works for Parallels... ;) )

[zarmanto]

Oops... I should have checked off "other" as well. My iMac is configured for native triple-booting (http://forum.onmac.net/showthread.php?t=2620): I can boot into MacOS X, Windows XP or Windows Vista. BootCamp alone didn't get me there -- I installed a third-party bootloader called rEFIt (http://refit.sourceforge.net/) to make that happen.

[fleuro4ek]

I've began from Parallels as well... :)
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[BlackCivic]

Thanks a lot for useful information! Surely it will help me to make a decision inspite of the fact that you 2 have pretty different point of views... I don't like that I have to reboot my system if I run BootCamp. But I like it in terms of gaming. I've read a plenty of possitive reports about gaming thru BootCamp.

As an aside: while I agree with Specter that the two virtualization programs are quite comparable in a great many ways, I do not necessarily agree with his assessment that Parallels is faster then Fusion, based upon my own brief experimentations with each program. (Sometimes I find myself wondering if he works for Parallels... ;) )

I am continuing to look for information about these 3 apps. I found an article (http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.24/24.02/VirtualizationBenchmark/) which agrees with specter. They say that Parallels is faster than Fusion.

I've not decided what to choose. Still thinking.. What about price of these to pieces of software? Are they completely different in pricing?

[fleuro4ek]

Everybody advise to try both! So what's question? Let run both and choose which is better for YOU!! It's like the perfume - somebody loves one smell, somebody another one, but they are both on the same level! So I think parallels and fusion are almost the same, only your own feeling will help you to make a right choice!!! I began with parallels, that's why I do not know anything about fusion! I like it, for me it's fast - no problem.
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[zarmanto]

I am continuing to look for information about these 3 apps. I found an article (http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.24/24.02/VirtualizationBenchmark/) which agrees with specter. They say that Parallels is faster than Fusion.

Thanks for the link; that's an interesting article. I didn't test virtualization in Vista, but I found it very interesting that they concluded that VMWare out-shines Parallels while running Vista; that makes it all that much more important to try both before deciding on one or the other for your particular purposes. However, it perplexes me that they actually said that Parallels can outperform BootCamp in some operations -- that absolutely was not reflected in my own experiences!

(It doesn't really affect my own opinions significantly... I'm still going to stick to BootCamp for my video ga... errr... Windows operations. ;) )

I've not decided what to choose. Still thinking.. What about price of these to pieces of software? Are they completely different in pricing?

I take it you didn't read all the way to the bottom of the article you linked? :rolleyes: They're both $79.99. Fusion used to be less expensive, but they raised their price to match Parallels. (No doubt the market supports it just fine.) Also, as Specter has pointed out elsewhere, Parallels offers a "premium" package, which bundles a few commercial utility programs, but I don't think VMWare offers the same type of bundling deal for Fusion.

[BlackCivic]

Well, the article seems to be truthful as we can see that the whole analysis was realized.

(It doesn't really affect my own opinions significantly... I'm still going to stick to BootCamp for my video ga... errr... Windows operations. ;))

Do you use BootCamp for gaming + Windows operations? And what about the feature that makes you to reboot your system to switch from one OS to another? Or you don't need to reboot often?
You don't need to reboot when you run Parallels or Fusion. I don't like this BootCamp's feature but however I am almost sure that I will use BootCamp for gaming. :)


I take it you didn't read all the way to the bottom of the article you linked? :rolleyes:

Yeah, I have skipped the information about prices. :) So the price wouldn't be the criteria of choice as they are equal.. The article and user's opinions must be the criteria. Moreover, I have seen the Parallels Premium offer specter told about. Looks rather interesting and attractive...

[zarmanto]

Do you use BootCamp for gaming...?

Yes; to be quite honest, my primary use of Windows on my iMac is for the purpose of gaming. The only other thing I do in Windows on my iMac is watch Netflix streaming movies -- and once Netflix finally fulfills their promise to bring streaming movies to the Mac, (it's looking like it might be later this year (http://www.macrumors.com/2008/01/23/netflix-to-offer-mac-video-streaming-in-2008/) if all goes well) that'll leave only gaming -- which I regret to say, is indeed infrequent these days.

Also, as you may have noted from my sig (below each of my posts) I actually have more then one computer at home, and one of them happens to be a home built PC. It used to be my primary gaming machine, but with the addition of the iMac, the PC has been relegated to a remote access box. (So has the old PowerMac, for that matter.) I installed LogMeIn (http://www.logmein.com/) on it, which is a very well designed cross-platform remote access tool, and whenever I need to drop into Windows for some simple task, (such as testing out a webpage in Internet Explorer) I just log into that PC instead of rebooting my iMac. In my opinion, this is a far better solution then virtualization, since it uses barely any resources on my iMac to access that PC. What's more, I can access my computers from anywhere that I have internet access -- and the basic version of LogMeIn is free.

So if you happen to have an old PC handy, then I would humbly submit that remote access to that PC is a far better solution then virtualization.

[BlackCivic]

Yes; to be quite honest, my primary use of Windows on my iMac is for the purpose of gaming.

Well, now it is easy to understand why you insist on running BootCamp! :) I already run BootCamp for gaming and like it very much. Sometimes I think that I am still on PC running it... ;)
But I think I still need Virtualization at least to exchange files between 2 OSs. I didn't quite understand does it possible to do exchange with that LogMeIn app? Your argument is that Virtualization is pretty resource intensive. But I think my Mac is rather powerful for Parallels or Fusion.
Everybody is looking for convenience. And I think Virtualization i s the thing that gives it to you! :)

[thinkingMAC]

Parallels or Fusion. :confused:
First Step would be to purchase that Macbook Pro i've been thinking about getting, almost have the $$$ saved up :(

I see conflicting interests on this debate in regards to which is better/faster/has better support/better UI/etc

[fleuro4ek]

Parallels or Fusion. :confused:
First Step would be to purchase that Macbook Pro i've been thinking about getting, almost have the $$$ saved up :(

I see conflicting interests on this debate in regards to which is better/faster/has better support/better UI/etc

I think you will save money - I've bought parallels, because of nice offer (http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/premium/) - 4 in 1! parallels + defense of your computer anti-virus Kasperskiy + True Image Home (really this I don't use) + Disk Director Suite (you may save all your data from PC without losing it). Try it :)
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[thinkingMAC]

I think you will save money - I've bought parallels, because of nice offer (http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/premium/) - 4 in 1! parallels + defense of your computer anti-virus Kasperskiy + True Image Home (really this I don't use) + Disk Director Suite (you may save all your data from PC without losing it). Try it :)

so this xtra win sw that comes w/ the bundle, can u insall it on actual win partition as well as the VM? and what all exactly do you mean that you save all data? as in just win stuff? or MAC stuff 2?

thanks for any advise/info that you offer

[zarmanto]

Well, now it is easy to understand why you insist on running BootCamp! :)

Ummmm... yeah. I have made no secret of my reasons for preferring BootCamp, in this or any of the other threads discussing this issue on this board. But I'm glad you understand. :rolleyes:

I didn't quite understand does it possible to do exchange with that LogMeIn app?

As I understand it, that feature of LogMeIn is resevered for the paid "Pro" version of their product -- but if your two computers are on the same LAN, then you can just use standard network file sharing to exchange files between them. And if they're on separate LANs (say, one is your home computer and one is your office computer) then you could still do it by enabling the appropriate file sharing services on your home computer. (Which services you use would depend upon various factors, such as how much effort you're willing to put into configuring your home internet router, and what kind of traffic is being blocked by your office firewall... but there is almost always some way to make it happen.)

[thinkingMAC]

With Parallels Desktop 3.0, you can:

Play Windows-only 3D games, including Half-Life,
and Unreal Tournament
Render in complex 3D CAD programs such as
AutoCAD 2008
Work with CPU-intensive video and sound editing
software such as Sony Vegas
Run mission-critical 3D applications on your Mac
Enjoy your favorite Windows-only games and graphics
applications directly in your Windows virtual machine
at full native speed – without rebooting This is the feature that made VMware look more appealing, now i think i'll sample Parallels software first...


http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/features/3d/

[fleuro4ek]

so this xtra win sw that comes w/ the bundle, can u insall it on actual win partition as well as the VM? and what all exactly do you mean that you save all data? as in just win stuff? or MAC stuff 2?

thanks for any advise/info that you offer

About saving data I meant that it's possible to restore all your data in any case. For more info I've found the link which explains why you need Disk Director Server (http://eu.acronis.com/enterprise/products/diskdirector/) and Acronis True Image (http://eu.acronis.com/enterprise/products/ATIES/)

Cool, that I will be more informed about the last one. Maybe I'll start to use it :)
[/URL]

This is the feature that made VMware look more appealing, now i think i'll sample Parallels software first...


[URL]http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/features/3d/ (http://eu.acronis.com/enterprise/products/ATIES/)

Great! Do not forget to share your experience then!


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[BlackCivic]

This is the feature that made VMware look more appealing, now i think i'll sample Parallels software first...

AutoCad is one of the apps I need and I feel happy that it is possible to run it with Parallels! Nice information about gaming! But I've heard that gaming thru Parallels is not perfect however, while BootCamp is perfect for it...

[zarmanto]

AutoCad is one of the apps I need and I feel happy that it is possible to run it with Parallels! Nice information about gaming! But I've heard that gaming thru Parallels is not perfect however, while BootCamp is perfect for it...

I concur: for some older games, (or for games which do not require extensive use of hardware 3D rendering) Parallels and VMWare might be adequate -- but don't even bother trying to play something like Bioshock on a virtual machine. (Been there... done that... rebooted. :D)

[aarathi]

I use Bootcamp

[BlackCivic]

Well, according to the posts above... I should choose the combination of Parallels and BootCamp.
Nothing remarkable was said about VMWare Fusion.
By the way last weekend I have downloaded Parallels Desktop trial and my first impressions are fully positive. Easy to install. Excellent and simple interface. Some answers on the questions that I had while I was installing it I have found in the Knowledge Base on their official web-site. Nice support the have! I like how the way they service their customers! :)
So now I'm thinking about buying Parallels license and going to choose one of their offer.
I am also thinking about buying BootCamp. By the way, where should I get it?

[fleuro4ek]

Great choice! :) I believe, everything will work great without any glitches not to let you down! :)
And about your last question... If you have already bought mac... I guess bootcamp must be included in set of mac... NO?
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[zarmanto]

BootCamp is not a separate commercial product; it is a feature of MacOS X 10.5 (Leopard). Thus, if you purchased a Macintosh computer after Leopard was released (which was right around the end of October '07, if I remember correctly), then it came with BootCamp.

[BlackCivic]

I guess bootcamp must be included in set of mac... NO?

BootCamp is not a separate commercial product; it is a feature of MacOS X 10.5 (Leopard).

Yeah, thanx! Found it! :)
I have already bought Parallels license! I did it this weekend! ;) Now I'm getting all the opportunities from it and from BootCamp! It is great! I have a universal machine called Mac by now! :)

[fleuro4ek]

Yeah, thanx! Found it!
I have already bought Parallels license! I did it this weekend! ;) Now I'm getting all the opportunities from it and from BootCamp! It is great! I have a universal machine called Mac by now!

OH!!! MY CONGATULATIONS!!! :):):)
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[billbear]

Now I'm using boot camp and virtualbox. www.virtualbox.org
Virtualbox is a free and open source virtualization software, its Mac version is still a beta, but very stable and impressive. I feel it's faster than Parallels/Fusion. Right now it is lack of some features -- Network can only work in NAT mode, usb support not good, file sharing function not work ( Not a big problem, i can enable smb sharing in OS X ) Now i am happy with virtualbox and looking forward to its next version. I think we can open a Virtualbox Forum here.
Another free virtualization software, Q, is still alpha software, and is unbearably slow. www.kju-app.org

I have also used Parallels and Fusion. They are very good, but both have some minor defects that bugs me much.
Parallels has more function than other virtualization softwares, and is very cool, but is less stable than Fusion. It corrupted so many times...
And very annoyingly, when I scroll in web pages, the screen tears. When watching some videos, I can't go full screen.
VMware Fusion is the stablest virtualization software I have ever used in my macbook, and it seems to perform better with less cpu usage than Parallels. but what annoys me is that when in full screen, the VMware menu keeps pop up whenever i move the mouse to the top of the screen. I can't disable this function which makes full screen games unplayable. Also I noticed, when i copy a cell in microsoft excel, after pressing control-c and before pressing control-v, if i hit the top of the screen, then I have nothing to paste. I have to press control-c again and be very carefully not to let the VM menu pop up. Very bad experience.

[BlackCivic]

Billbear, thanks for your brief review on Virtualization products. It really deserves attention.
I haven't heard anything about Virtual Box. But my personal attitude to free soft isn't very good. This soft looks shady for me. When I pay for soft I know that I pay people who work for it, people who has developed this soft. And when I buy it I hope they did it well. What do people who develop free soft get? Nothing? Then it soft must be with low quality...
However, I've used free antivirus soft called Avast and i really liked it.. I just can't understand what do people get spreading free soft? Can you explain me? :rolleyes:
About those Parallels features you have mentioned... Well, me personally don't notice these things in Parallels Desktop. But I am agree that some of these things could be crucial for someone.. Anyway there is no perfect software as nothing could be perfect in our life. :) But it could be better or worse for someone.. Depends on personal experience and attitude. ;) For me, Parallels is the best Virtualization software...

[BlackCivic]

By the way I also like how Parallels do perform on the market and how it makes relations with it customers.. It really important because they sell high-technological product that needs support and feedback. These things are the part of the product as well! I had a plenty of questions while starting to use Parallels Desktop. And all the answers I have found on their web-site. :)
The always have nice offers for their customers. Last of them was "Break into spring" offer that looks pretty attractive... :rolleyes:

[billbear]

I haven't heard anything about Virtual Box. But my personal attitude to free soft isn't very good. This soft looks shady for me. When I pay for soft I know that I pay people who work for it, people who has developed this soft. And when I buy it I hope they did it well. What do people who develop free soft get? Nothing? Then it soft must be with low quality...
However, I've used free antivirus soft called Avast and i really liked it..
So why did you trust avast that you didn't pay for?
What other free softwares have you used?
Don't call it "shady" before you have tried it.
I personally have very positive impression of open source softwares. I am running Ubuntu most of the time and I love it.

[billbear]

About those Parallels features you have mentioned... Well, me personally don't notice these things in Parallels Desktop. But I am agree that some of these things could be crucial for someone.. Anyway there is no perfect software as nothing could be perfect in our life. :) But it could be better or worse for someone.. Depends on personal experience and attitude. ;) For me, Parallels is the best Virtualization software...
Those are not "features", they are bugs. Maybe Parallels has resolved those problems in their latest release, i don't know. I agree that Parallels is great. The speed they added new features to their product was very impressive. However they seemed to build their code not so solid, their product reacted like beta. ( i mean the early versions, i don't use it know and don't know how good it is) Last year it corrupted for no reason and the virtual disk was completely damaged then i removed it from my mac. (Lesson: do not save important data on a virtual disk!)
And VMware, in my experience, is the stablest virtualization software. I have used VMware for more than 5 years, i have all kinds of VMware machines running on different platforms and they NEVER crashed one single time.

[BlackCivic]

So why did you trust avast that you didn't pay for?
Well, just because i had positive experience running it... :)

What other free softwares have you used?
Not much.. WinAmp, QIP.. These are nice ones. I used to run free Opera browser but I didn't like it..
We have a plenty of free software on Russian web-sites that isn't really for free.. There are many cracks that let you run this soft.. I don't like it but this is what we really have..
I just wonder if you can answer my question: how do this guys who spread free soft make money? :confused:

[BlackCivic]

And VMware, in my experience, is the stablest virtualization software. I have used VMware for more than 5 years, i have all kinds of VMware machines running on different platforms and they NEVER crashed one single time.

Well, this is your positive experience about Fusion. And I'm having great experience running Parallels... I have never run Fusion and I'm sure I won't ever because I think I am becoming Parallels fan...
So, maybe there shouldn't be the question "which is better?". It is very subjective and individual...
For me these 2 apps are actually associated with Mercedes and BMW. :) One cannot be objectively better than another... ;)

[zarmanto]

I just wonder if you can answer my question: how do this guys who spread free soft make money? :confused:

Actually, it's often not about making money at all. People create free software for various reasons: In some cases, the developer doesn't feel that their efforts on a particular project warranted compensation... for example, perhaps they only wrote the program as an experiment or to fulfill some personal requirement, and then decided to release it to the public to see if anyone else might find it useful. Products developed by people with this kind of a mindset sometimes end up passing into obscurity as the original developer loses interest, and other times the product will be passed along to someone else who deems it worthy of further development.

In other cases, the developer may feel some sense of moral outrage at one or more products released by commercial entities, and so they release a "competing" product for free, in order to attempt to right the perceived wrong. Obvious examples of this might be just about any flavor of Linux, and the OpenOffice productivity suite. Products built by someone with this kind of a mindset usually tend to be very full featured, and are well maintained by the original developer and (frequently) many other like-minded developers as well. Developers of this class of software typically release their products (and the underlying source-code) under a licensing agreement similar to the GPL, which basically says that anyone can use the product or its source code free of charge -- but commercial developers in particular are greatly restricted in how they can take advantage of that source code within their own commercial endeavors.

There are of course other cases, such as the commercial vendor who releases a free "version" of one of their products, in order to try to entice you into buying their commercial version, or a developer who releases their software for free at first and then suddenly has a change of heart and decides that its time to start charging for their wares... but those are not the class of software that billbear is trying to advocate here; he's more trying to steer people towards GPL/open source software.

In other words, it's not about making money... it's about helping other people to save money.

[BlackCivic]

Actually, it's often not about making money at all.

In our capitalistic World it is hard to believe in this statement, isn't it? :p
Well, anyway big thanks to you for such detailed "lecture" about free soft! That was really nice and interesting to read...
By the way, what about you? What is your attitude to free soft? Do you use any?

[zarmanto]

In our capitalistic World it is hard to believe in this statement, isn't it?

Actually, that right there could easily warrant an even longer lecture -- if I were of a mind to give it. ;)

By the way, what about you? What is your attitude to free soft? Do you use any?

I probably fall into much the same opinion of a great many people in the western world: Non-commercial software is always worth looking into to see if it can fulfill the need, but I am not against spending money when that need cannot be met by the available free options. As an obvious example, I am a strong advocate of the Macintosh, and there are no free/non-commercial alternatives to the user experience offered by the Mac.

And to add to that: In response to one of your earlier comments... it has been my experience that free software from legitimate channels (as opposed to pirate/cracked software) is in absolutely no way "shady" -- in fact, it's just the opposite. I think your views may have been significantly influenced by the contents of those Russian websites that you mentioned.

[BlackCivic]

As an obvious example, I am a strong advocate of the Macintosh, and there are no free/non-commercial alternatives to the user experience offered by the Mac.

Yep, I have never seen any Macintosh soft for free... What can be the reason for it? Mac-soft producer don't have demand boom or smth.. Well, maybe the lack of competition + specific of Mac segment. They have their own market niche which is very nice for doing business and making money. :o

I think your views may have been significantly influenced by the contents of those Russian websites that you mentioned.

No.. Free soft we have on our web-sites has no differences from legal soft. I'm sure you won't find any. I meant that sometimes free = defective or low quality. That what I mean by saying it is "shady"..
But however as far as I remember almost every free soft I have has pretty high quality and works fine. :rolleyes: Then I should be glad that I have an opportunity to have free and smart soft! Well, I am glad... :)

[zarmanto]

Yep, I have never seen any Macintosh soft for free...

This may be a language barrier issue... but I wasn't trying to say that there is no free Macintosh software available; I only meant that there is no free software option which successfully reproduces (or even comes close to, for that matter) the user interface which Apple has developed for their computers. There are certainly free third-party programs available for Macintosh users -- many of which are cross-platform, such as the previously mentioned OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/). A few decent software repositories listing a myriad of different types of free software for the Macintosh (and various other platforms, for that matter) are Tucows.com (http://www.tucows.com/), Download.com (http://www.download.com/) and VersionTracker.com (http://www.versiontracker.com/macosx/). Of course, these sites all list shareware and commercial software as well, but on Tucows and Download.com you can filter the results to find one or the other quite easily. (I think you need an account on VersionTracker to filter their listings.)